Downtown Khazan: Ice Cold Utopia

[Sharpandpointies]

An observant reader is thee. If we look at this interaction from the perspective of Allison's [potential] progression toward Royalty, then it kind of makes sense. I'm going to spoiler tag this but if you're not reasonably deep in the sauce for KSBD it's not going to make much sense either way.

*snips*

I feel that the strangeness and contradictions in the conversation are very intentional. Abbadon is very skilled writer and he's definitely thought about this **** a lot.

It's worth listening to this podcast from last year wherein Abbadon spoke about the sequence we're currently in (Timestamp of 47:55 if my link-fu doesn't work.) The whole podcast is actually very interesting, worth listening to for sure.

He also talks about Royalty as a concept as well in the rapid-fire lore section.

See also, the plot of the Soul Reaver series and its many timeline flowcharts.

Thank you. Clearly there's a lot of background stuff I'm missing or have forgotten!

Okay, so it's definitely getting into the realm of 'more going on than I think'. Thanks. There's some sense to this, though how

spoilers:

we can have beings who exist in a universe that is all there with the granular illusion of time being the only thing that keeps us from seeing everything, and still have 'free will' and the capacity to act outside of 'everything is already done and determined and we just don't know it yet', because that breaks predetermination...but then, we're into abstract stuff and getting deeply into philosophy, and I would be curious to see where that ends up. Does it then re-introduce free will, because 'stuff has changed'? Or does it just reposition 'everything' from that point 'forward' in the illusion we name time? Or is that predetermination more flexible, in that someone capable of this can act on their own, but unless they REALLY take some pretty destructive action or the like, everything just flexes around their choices (obviously if someone does something in the 'future' and gets killed, that thing can no longer occur, but maybe reality is more flexible)?

end of spoilers

Possibilities, possibilities, and having GM'ed for so long, I know the best possible answer is 'probably none of those choices from the writer, but something completely different'. ^_^

Also not at all saying it's bad, just wondering where it ends up.

I've...had some pretty dark moments with it. But I seem to be over the panic attacks where I want to rip my own skin off it seems and into much milder discomforts.
And you've never said anything mean Sharp, you're cool.

Ugh. I'm very, very sorry. I wish you only the best in this, and hope it gets resolved.

I'm glad I haven't said anything 'mean', but...my speech is peppered with gender references (like my first reply to you!), and I have to focus to take those things out/keep it neutral. I would never say anything maliciously or with intent to harm in this, but I might accidentally/habitually say something that isn't appropriate. So I need to check my language, is all, because words ARE important. ^_^

Yep - and somehow I've dodged the virus so far despite being exposed to a few family members when they had it but were still asymptomatic. I still wear masks on occasions (not out to eat, got to take them off anyways for that, but for general shopping), still fairly social distancing, but definitely feels like it's mostly been pure luck at this point.

I'm one of those who is still wearing masks. Always when I go out. The only exception is when I'm practicing in the park with two other 'seniors' of my retired teacher, and when we get interactive the masks go back on. VERY glad to hear you've dodged the virus (same here) - I know many who haven't.

God I wish I were ginormously rich. Or any kind of rich really. And yeah, people are struggling these days. Just the weather this summer alone has been fairly disastrous world wide, never mind everything else.

And my needs are fairly simple, so I could give most of it away. ^_^

People ARE struggling, things are ugly all over the world. I have little hope. Not saying it's not worth TRYING to help, but I can do that while holding little hope. Giving up isn't an option.

[Nik Hasta]

Thank you. Clearly there's a lot of background stuff I'm missing or have forgotten!

Okay, so it's definitely getting into the realm of 'more going on than I think'. Thanks. There's some sense to this, though how

*snip*

Possibilities, possibilities, and having GM'ed for so long, I know the best possible answer is 'probably none of those choices from the writer, but something completely different'. ^_^

Also not at all saying it's bad, just wondering where it ends up.

Abbadon says in the podcast, "If you think something is axiomatic to KSBD, you're probably wrong,"

He also says, "If you're an ancient old swordmaster or a wine grandma, you're probably Royalty,"

And let it not be forgotten that YISUN, the true ultimate form of all reality, is a massive and dedicated liar.

[Sharpandpointies]

Abbadon says in the podcast, "If you think something is axiomatic to KSBD, you're probably wrong,"

Which is logical. I mean, fictional worlds should have rules, but when you make a fictional universe where the top-end people are essentially rule-breakers, well.

He also says, "If you're an ancient old swordmaster or a wine grandma, you're probably Royalty,"

So it's not limited to the most powerful people. It's just...something people ascend to, somehow (you note how, above, without concrete details and it doesn't sound like a concrete details kind of thing - there's no checklist). And based on your description, it's at least in part connected to the whole 'power paradox' concept and other such ideas, such as where one only achieves the pinnacle of 'power' (or what might be deemed power) by eschewing its use. Or becomes capable of achieving that pinnacle due to eschewing its use.

And let it not be forgotten that YISUN, the true ultimate form of all reality, is a massive and dedicated liar.

...does not help, no.

[Nik Hasta]

So it's not limited to the most powerful people. It's just...something people ascend to, somehow (you note how, above, without concrete details and it doesn't sound like a concrete details kind of thing - there's no checklist). And based on your description, it's at least in part connected to the whole 'power paradox' concept and other such ideas, such as where one only achieves the pinnacle of 'power' (or what might be deemed power) by eschewing its use. Or becomes capable of achieving that pinnacle due to eschewing its use.

There's a nice line from one of the parables of YISUN about one of YISUN's disciples, Hansa.

YISUN sat once with his disciple Hansa in YISUN’s second clockwise glass palace. Hansa was one of his most ardent students and a grand questioner of YISUN. Unlike Yisun’s other disciple, Pree Ashma, he had no hunger in his heart for dominion of the universe, but a miserly scrutiny and a heart of iron nails. He was not an aspirant for royalty, and thereby attained it through little effort.

Hansa’s questions were thus:

‘Lord, how must I question space?’

‘With an age, an ant may encircle a giant five million times,’ spoke YISUN.

‘Lord, how then may I question time?’

‘A giant’s stride of a moment takes an ant a week to surpass.’ YISUN spoke and smiled in the 4th way.

Hansa was discontent with this answer and rubbed the stem of his long and worn pipe which he always kept with him and would eventually lead to his annihilation. Since he was royalty, he knew this, and kept it close to him as a reminder of his circular death.

‘Lord, then which should I be, the giant or the ant?’

‘Both,’ spoke YISUN,’ or either, when it suits you. Destroy the grand enemy called ‘I’.’

Hansa contemplated this in silence. Later he would recount this proverb to his daughter.

Emphasis mine.

Meti, who has Royalty, and is a master in the art of cutting, lives in a barrel and gets drunk all the time rather than seeking to fight. All significant entry in her sword manual advise people not to learn to use the sword.

I'm very partial to her fifth step to Mastering the Sword:

5. To train with the sword, first master sweeping. When you have mastered sweeping, you must master the way of drawing water. Once you have learned how to draw water, you must split wood. Once you have split wood, you must learn the arts of finding the fine herbs in the forest, the arts of writing, the arts of paper making, and poetry writing. You must become familiar with the awl and the pen in equal measure. When you have mastered all these things you must master building a house. Once your house is built, you have no further need for a sword, since it is an ugly piece of metal and its adherents idiots.

If anything, Zoss "i conquered the entire universe and learnt the true name of god," is the outlier based on what we know of Royalty. But maybe his experiences changed him? It was less the action of becoming the mightiest demiurge in all creation and more the result of that journey that led him to Royalty.

[Sharpandpointies]

I do really like that stuff from the lore and background. And Meti's stuff was always pretty hilarious.

I DO find it interesting that Hansa, who is Royalty, can't stop himself from getting killed even if he's aware of it.

[Sharpandpointies]

...it also sounds like a callout to an old martial arts story/Daoist proverb (I think).

[student] If I want to master the sword, how long will it take?

[master] One thousand days.

[student] If I work at it seven days a week, diligently?

[master] Five thousand days.

[student] If I eschew all else but the sword, devote my entire life to it, never have eyes for anything but the sword?

[master] Twenty thousand days.

Or somesuch.

[Nik Hasta]

I do really like that stuff from the lore and background. And Meti's stuff was always pretty hilarious.

I DO find it interesting that Hansa, who is Royalty, can't stop himself from getting killed even if he's aware of it.

I think Hansa knowing of his upcoming death would be a facet of Royalty which would, in theory, likely come with some kind of personal omniscience, as you can perceive your life and the system from the outside.

Death is a bit of grey area for Royalty it seems, insofar as we know much about it.

Incubus killed Meti and, as Maya tells it, fed her body to the dogs so she is fully dead as far as we know.

When asked if Zoss is alive or dead, Abbadon responded "Yes," which is somewhat unhelpful.

And in the story that covers Hansa's death, wherein he is killed by another drunken god for causing offence with his pipe smoke, his corpse constantly berates his daughter for her attempts to bury him as inadequate. It's also worth noting that Abbadon left this comment under that story apparently contradicting the circumstances of his death:

Prim and Hansa are both in form absent from the Multiverse as they self-annihilated by Division along with the rest of the multiplicity in the forging of the Wheel. Many still swear by them or pray to them for protection though.

So... death is a bit of a tricky one.

[Sharpandpointies]

Weird. But that's basically the byline for the entire series. ^_^

[Nik Hasta]

Weird. But that's basically the byline for the entire series. ^_^

Kind of the old Vertigo approach to cosmology, one which I've always enjoyed for the flexibility it entails; All the stories are true at the same time.

The universe was both created in the cosmic fires of the Big Bang, was made when Nu Wa cut the legs of a turtle to prop up the sky, was forged from the body of Bor, father of Odin and was crafted by Michael Demiurgos and Lucifer Morningstar at the behest of the Presence.

All true, all contradictory, all happened at the same time depending on how you look at it.

[Vakanai]

Ugh. I'm very, very sorry. I wish you only the best in this, and hope it gets resolved.

Thank you very much, means a lot. And same. Although it seems to be going in the opposite direction of resolved. Seems like every day I discover a new realisation, remember something, have thoughts, or just find a new-to-me way that dysphoria can present itself. And then there's the flipside to it that feels better but is even scarier for being more damning apparently.

I'm glad I haven't said anything 'mean', but...my speech is peppered with gender references (like my first reply to you!), and I have to focus to take those things out/keep it neutral. I would never say anything maliciously or with intent to harm in this, but I might accidentally/habitually say something that isn't appropriate. So I need to check my language, is all, because words ARE important. ^_^

It's ok - I'm not exactly "out" most places, especially irl, and the experience is still new (I've had...suspicions for a few years that "maybe" this, but I figured that it was a long shot, that if I really was I would've just "known" you know? But suspicions aren't the same thing as...feeling all this raw) so I'm mostly not bothered by being called he and man yet. Though there are some times where it's been been bothering me lately, mostly when I do it myself. Like one of my common thoughts is "what now man" and now I make myself cringe with that a lot by accidental habit, so that's a thing...never mind the times where I do it intentionally just trying to make it feel normal again but just upsetting myself.

I'm one of those who is still wearing masks. Always when I go out. The only exception is when I'm practicing in the park with two other 'seniors' of my retired teacher, and when we get interactive the masks go back on. VERY glad to hear you've dodged the virus (same here) - I know many who haven't.

Yeah. Think I'm the only one in my family still masking, so it's hard sometimes. Glad you're keeping active and have dodged it too!

And my needs are fairly simple, so I could give most of it away. ^_^

Same. Mostly as long as I'm fed, got internet, and heating and cooling I can get by.

People ARE struggling, things are ugly all over the world. I have little hope. Not saying it's not worth TRYING to help, but I can do that while holding little hope. Giving up isn't an option.

Well you've got more hope than me - I lost mine years ago. But I'm not trying to be dark and edgy about it - learned that hope's not necessary to try and do good or be a decent human being. Hope for the future or not, we're all in this together. Rather work for a future I don't believe will ever come than help bring about a terrible one I think is inevitable. At least that way you can say you tried.

[Vakanai]

Kind of the old Vertigo approach to cosmology, one which I've always enjoyed for the flexibility it entails; All the stories are true at the same time.

The universe was both created in the cosmic fires of the Big Bang, was made when Nu Wa cut the legs of a turtle to prop up the sky, was forged from the body of Bor, father of Odin and was crafted by Michael Demiurgos and Lucifer Morningstar at the behest of the Presence.

All true, all contradictory, all happened at the same time depending on how you look at it.

Nik my pirate friend, how have you been?

[Sharpandpointies]

Kind of the old Vertigo approach to cosmology, one which I've always enjoyed for the flexibility it entails; All the stories are true at the same time.

The universe was both created in the cosmic fires of the Big Bang, was made when Nu Wa cut the legs of a turtle to prop up the sky, was forged from the body of Bor, father of Odin and was crafted by Michael Demiurgos and Lucifer Morningstar at the behest of the Presence.

All true, all contradictory, all happened at the same time depending on how you look at it.

Old World of Darkness had something similar as well.

Thank you very much, means a lot. And same. Although it seems to be going in the opposite direction of resolved. Seems like every day I discover a new realisation, remember something, have thoughts, or just find a new-to-me way that dysphoria can present itself. And then there's the flipside to it that feels better but is even scarier for being more damning apparently.

This definitely is a long, drawn-out journey for you, with a lot of revelations but a lot of pain on the road. Wish it could be easier.

It's ok - I'm not exactly "out" most places, especially irl, and the experience is still new (I've had...suspicions for a few years that "maybe" this, but I figured that it was a long shot, that if I really was I would've just "known" you know? But suspicions aren't the same thing as...feeling all this raw) so I'm mostly not bothered by being called he and man yet. Though there are some times where it's been been bothering me lately, mostly when I do it myself. Like one of my common thoughts is "what now man" and now I make myself cringe with that a lot by accidental habit, so that's a thing...never mind the times where I do it intentionally just trying to make it feel normal again but just upsetting myself.

Well, you're going through a lot, and it's on me not to add to that. If your perspective on this is still shifting, it's still shifting, and I should be keeping myself aware of that (and now that I know, will be).

I'm not in that situation, but have heard stories from people, and it seems some people 'just know', as you say, and others it's a heck of a journey. I shouldn't be making that journey any more difficult (would rather make it easier!), so watching my habits is certainly a responsibility I should take seriously!

Yeah. Think I'm the only one in my family still masking, so it's hard sometimes. Glad you're keeping active and have dodged it too!

Ooof. Hope you at least don't get flack for that.

And thanks - so far, so good. Only now monkeypox is going around as well...arrgh. Zoonotic diseases are competing with Climate Change, and they're both our fault.

Same. Mostly as long as I'm fed, got internet, and heating and cooling I can get by.

Good, good - I just wish you happiness, not just getting by. But we always need to start by surviving, right? ^_^

Well you've got more hope than me - I lost mine years ago. But I'm not trying to be dark and edgy about it - learned that hope's not necessary to try and do good or be a decent human being. Hope for the future or not, we're all in this together. Rather work for a future I don't believe will ever come than help bring about a terrible one I think is inevitable. At least that way you can say you tried.

That's a good perspective that isn't at all dark and edgy. One needs to try, even if things don't look good.

One also needs to find some happiness in life (without trampling on other people, of course), so again I'm hoping for that for you.

[Len Ikari145]

Yeay, more grimdark, gross out nonsense inbound.

Yeah, I've honestly become weary of any writing of Mark Millar after Kick-Ass. It's just too juvenile for me at this stage in my life.

...God, I feel old.

[Vakanai]

This definitely is a long, drawn-out journey for you, with a lot of revelations but a lot of pain on the road. Wish it could be easier.

Not sure if I can handle any more revelations (believe me, I've discovered stuff about myself I'd have never believed), but thank you for the well wishes.

Well, you're going through a lot, and it's on me not to add to that. If your perspective on this is still shifting, it's still shifting, and I should be keeping myself aware of that (and now that I know, will be).

Thanks Sharp, you're good people.

I'm not in that situation, but have heard stories from people, and it seems some people 'just know', as you say, and others it's a heck of a journey. I shouldn't be making that journey any more difficult (would rather make it easier!), so watching my habits is certainly a responsibility I should take seriously!

Yeah, had to look into that myself, apparently learning later in life isn't uncommon. Although when I looked into it I was really hoping that it wasn't a thing.

Ooof. Hope you at least don't get flack for that.

Not really. Worst I got was dad asking "you're still wearing masks?" but that was it. Just makes me feel self conscious around here, or did. Got other things to make me feel more self conscious now so eh.

And thanks - so far, so good. Only now monkeypox is going around as well...arrgh. Zoonotic diseases are competing with Climate Change, and they're both our fault.

Yeah. Only saving grace is monkeypox doesn't seem particularly deadly compared to the other ongoing pandemic, but it's concerning to get another one while the previous hasn't ended yet. Seems like we'll be seeing more pandemics going forward, and you're right, it's all our fault.

Good, good - I just wish you happiness, not just getting by. But we always need to start by surviving, right? ^_^

Thanks, wishing you happiness too. And yep, surviving is good.

That's a good perspective that isn't at all dark and edgy. One needs to try, even if things don't look good.

Well usually people get all wrapped up in how good hope is and to keep it I guess. But hope isn't the only reason to do good.

One also needs to find some happiness in life (without trampling on other people, of course), so again I'm hoping for that for you.

Oh I've still got some happiness - I currently have my baby niece over, and that baby makes me smile so much. She is precious.
Wishing for your happiness too!

[Vakanai]

Yeah, I've honestly become weary of any writing of Mark Millar after Kick-Ass. It's just too juvenile for me at this stage in my life.

...God, I feel old.

S'up old Len?