1. #17071
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    I disagree with calling those powers hand outs. They were earned, they were simply earned via character developement rather than training
    They weren't though?

    Hagaromo turned up in a spirit quest vision out of nowhere, explained that the thematic parallels of the Senju vs the Uchiha being embodied by Naruto and Sasuke weren't just theming but were actually the product of the constantly reincarnating spirits of his two children throughout history. Rather than being a statement on "People who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it," Naruto as series ends up with "No, history is just the same conflict again and again because destiny," (which is pretty lame in my opinion)

    He then asked both them "Hey, what do you think being a Hokage means?"

    Naruto went "Bonds and comradeship," Sasuke went "Revolution and executing my vision of peace,"

    Hagoromo said "Neat, have a powerup," and gave them both a big powerup.

    They weren't earned by character development because neither character developed significantly between the revelation of the true nature of the historic conflicts in their world being some rando alien spirits getting revealed to them and them being rewarded with a powerup. It's incredibly generous to say "they got them as reward for character development," when said development boiled down to a quick conversation and then they got a powerup despite answering entirely different things.

    To me, it's also worse on a larger scale because Harogomo's presence in the narrative and the whole destiny angle boils down the complex question of "how does one end a generations long period of war and lay ancient and potent grudges to rest," to the answer of "oh, you just have to beat this one guy because of destiny,"

    As I've said in the past, I like Naruto and generally think it tries to be a lot more complex and interesting in its theming and storytelling than people give it credit for.

    This aspect though? This and the whole Ohsutsuki plotline? Terrible, actively made a lot of things much less interesting.

    We already had a compelling and complicated story of the most hated and demonised person in his society trying to rise to position where he could create meaningful bonds, be granted a sense of self worth and effect change to end wars, paralleled against one of the most lauded and exceptional people in said society descending into hatred, starting wars and cutting himself off from that society because he believes the exceptionalism nonsense he'd been fed since birth.

    That's good and powerful stuff.

    You don't need "And also they were the reincarnated spirits of some fucking guys we've never heard of," on top of that. That is a hat on a hat.

    TL;DR - adding destiny to an already interesting story is a bad idea. destiny sucks unless it is an antagonistic narrative force.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 10-22-2020 at 02:14 AM.

  2. #17072
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    TL;DR - adding destiny to an already interesting story is a bad idea. destiny sucks unless it is an antagonistic narrative force.
    Wild applause.jpg

    Well put.
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  3. #17073
    The Undead One The Chou Lives's Avatar
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    Nik said it.

    The charm I loved in Naruto was how he started off hated, feared and over coming those public opinions.

    Retconning him to being ninja Jesus in a new body due to fate? Kills the whole point.

  4. #17074
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    Called it with these two.

    Rumors have it that the final Bleach character will be Yoruichi and the final JoJo character will be Giorno.

  5. #17075
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    So when we started the Dungeons and Dragons campaign many months ago our rogue managed to steal a store owner's deed and sell his shop out from under him to some other shopkeep.

    Now after enough time in game for the authorities to sort that mess out there's an 8000 gold bounty on him. Of course he did it so well that nobody has a clue that he did it. So we're trying to figure out a way how to frame somebody else for it to collect the reward. And it has to be a method that could pass a possible interrogation with a zone of truth spell.

    Any D&D players here with an idea?


    Also yahello! How is everyone?

  6. #17076
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    So when we started the Dungeons and Dragons campaign many months ago our rogue managed to steal a store owner's deed and sell his shop out from under him to some other shopkeep.

    Now after enough time in game for the authorities to sort that mess out there's an 8000 gold bounty on him. Of course he did it so well that nobody has a clue that he did it. So we're trying to figure out a way how to frame somebody else for it to collect the reward. And it has to be a method that could pass a possible interrogation with a zone of truth spell.

    Any D&D players here with an idea?
    Truth spells and the like make it nigh-impossible to pull off scams. About the only way you can work it is if the truth spell doesn't distinguish REALITY, but rather picks up on whether or not the person BELIEVES it is true. Zone of Truth is the latter, so there are two ways around it.

    1. Make your saving throw and lie your ass off;
    2. Actually BELIEVE what you say is the truth (you cannot speak a deliberate lie, but if you're just wrong the spell doesn't affect you).

    There is a third way - misdirection and word games - but that's dependent on the questioner being an idiot and not asking the correct questions, so it's not the best possible choice.

    The first way around the spell is obvious (make your save). The second...I can think of two ways.

    1. Have your own memories altered (there are likely ways to do this in 5th edition...or maybe not, I'm not familiar with 5th) so that you believe your story;
    2. Get someone ELSE who actually believes it to point the finger, then do the capturing.

    ...I take it your party is of an Evil alignment in general? Not my style, but one of the above choices should at least give you a chance to get the bounty.

    Also yahello! How is everyone?
    Good day - life is pretty good, all things considered!
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  7. #17077
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Truth spells and the like make it nigh-impossible to pull off scams. About the only way you can work it is if the truth spell doesn't distinguish REALITY, but rather picks up on whether or not the person BELIEVES it is true. Zone of Truth is the latter, so there are two ways around it.

    1. Make your saving throw and lie your ass off;
    2. Actually BELIEVE what you say is the truth (you cannot speak a deliberate lie, but if you're just wrong the spell doesn't affect you).

    There is a third way - misdirection and word games - but that's dependent on the questioner being an idiot and not asking the correct questions, so it's not the best possible choice.

    The first way around the spell is obvious (make your save). The second...I can think of two ways.

    1. Have your own memories altered (there are likely ways to do this in 5th edition...or maybe not, I'm not familiar with 5th) so that you believe your story;
    2. Get someone ELSE who actually believes it to point the finger, then do the capturing.

    ...I take it your party is of an Evil alignment in general? Not my style, but one of the above choices should at least give you a chance to get the bounty.



    Good day - life is pretty good, all things considered!
    Actually no, not an evil party - my character is a paladin who has no clue our rogue did this and would never willingly be a part of it. In fact my character got a job as a guard in the city, super good guy. I'm just meta plotting with the other player.

    He's trying to figure out the memory altering thing you suggested, but it's not an easy thing to get. I'm thinking of the getting someone else who believes it angle.

    And glad to hear you're doing good! I'm mostly okay. I'm currently in one of my downswings with depression, but I'm keeping myself distracted pretty good.

  8. #17078
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    One of our party has a Ring of Mind Shielding. I'm thinking that could be an avenue.

  9. #17079
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Actually no, not an evil party - my character is a paladin who has no clue our rogue did this and would never willingly be a part of it. In fact my character got a job as a guard in the city, super good guy. I'm just meta plotting with the other player.

    He's trying to figure out the memory altering thing you suggested, but it's not an easy thing to get. I'm thinking of the getting someone else who believes it angle.
    Cool.

    Rogue is evil? Or is the guy he's planning to pin it on not-so-nice? 'Cause this definitely falls into the category of 'evil acts', and he's going to need to watch himself around your Paladin. Detect Evil is rather 'area affecting'. ^_^

    And glad to hear you're doing good! I'm mostly okay. I'm currently in one of my downswings with depression, but I'm keeping myself distracted pretty good.
    Ugh, sorry to hear. I hope you can manage it - seem to have before, but that's rough, man. Good support?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    One of our party has a Ring of Mind Shielding. I'm thinking that could be an avenue.
    The only risk is that such things are detectable. Otherwise, yeah.
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  10. #17080
    Astonishing Member KingofPie's Avatar
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    The idea that RAMBO COMBO VIDEOS will exist soon has put me into a deep meditative state on the nature of reality


  11. #17081
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Cool.

    Rogue is evil? Or is the guy he's planning to pin it on not-so-nice? 'Cause this definitely falls into the category of 'evil acts', and he's going to need to watch himself around your Paladin. Detect Evil is rather 'area affecting'. ^_^
    I'd say rogue is more chaotic neutral - his heart tends to be in the right place *most* of the time so far. And he did steal some apocalyptic key of doom from said shopkeep so...
    It'd definitely be a bad guy he'd frame if it happens.

    Ugh, sorry to hear. I hope you can manage it - seem to have before, but that's rough, man. Good support?
    Eh, depression is something I've had to deal with all my life. It's something I'm accustomed to, so it's something I can deal with.

    The only risk is that such things are detectable. Otherwise, yeah.
    Actually I just went back and searched the log. Our rogue's underworld contact told him that after having to deal with two people owning the same property from that deal they're going over all deed transactions and stuff with zone of truth and jazz - so it might not actually apply to getting the bounty. Probably.

  12. #17082
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Obviously all of this is dependent on what level you’re at.

    Minor Illusion some evidence that a third party sees (so that they’re the witness, not you), which is including some note talking about how the framee (totally a word, sshh!) is going to kill you because (supposedly) he knows that you guys are the only people who know what he did. The guy who saw the illusion will genuinely believe it’s true.

    Get someone to cast Modify Memory on one of your party, so that they believe the scam story is actually true. You can always undo this later with Remove Curse or Greater Restoration. Note: Modify Memory is a SERIOUS spell. It’s Level 5 to begin with, and at that level you can only affect their memories of an event in the last 24 hours. Depending on when the scam event was, you would need to get it cast at Level 6 (for the last 7 days), Level 7 (last month), Level 8 (last year) or Level 9 (at any point in their life). So you’d need to have a tame high-level spellcaster on hand (or bought).

    Find the guy you’re framing, and have a fight, during which they die.

    Cast Speak with Dead on them.

    When the authorities arrive, you’re standing over the corpse of someone who they’ve been told was going to try and kill you, and there’s a witness to that effect, and to the scam (from the Minor Illusion) who will believe it and answer truthfully under Zone of Truth.

    If they try and Speak with Dead to his corpse, they won’t be able to (IIRC, once it’s been cast on a corpse once, it can’t be cast again on that same corpse). If they ask you to confirm the scam under Zone of Truth, one of you will believe that to be the truth and can confirm it. The rest don’t have to speak at all.

    It’s not a flawless plan, and it does depend on a pretty hefty spell, but it might work...?

  13. #17083
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    Obviously all of this is dependent on what level you’re at.

    Minor Illusion some evidence that a third party sees (so that they’re the witness, not you), which is including some note talking about how the framee (totally a word, sshh!) is going to kill you because (supposedly) he knows that you guys are the only people who know what he did. The guy who saw the illusion will genuinely believe it’s true.

    Get someone to cast Modify Memory on one of your party, so that they believe the scam story is actually true. You can always undo this later with Remove Curse or Greater Restoration. Note: Modify Memory is a SERIOUS spell. It’s Level 5 to begin with, and at that level you can only affect their memories of an event in the last 24 hours. Depending on when the scam event was, you would need to get it cast at Level 6 (for the last 7 days), Level 7 (last month), Level 8 (last year) or Level 9 (at any point in their life). So you’d need to have a tame high-level spellcaster on hand (or bought).

    Find the guy you’re framing, and have a fight, during which they die.

    Cast Speak with Dead on them.

    When the authorities arrive, you’re standing over the corpse of someone who they’ve been told was going to try and kill you, and there’s a witness to that effect, and to the scam (from the Minor Illusion) who will believe it and answer truthfully under Zone of Truth.

    If they try and Speak with Dead to his corpse, they won’t be able to (IIRC, once it’s been cast on a corpse once, it can’t be cast again on that same corpse). If they ask you to confirm the scam under Zone of Truth, one of you will believe that to be the truth and can confirm it. The rest don’t have to speak at all.

    It’s not a flawless plan, and it does depend on a pretty hefty spell, but it might work...?
    Modify memory is the tough one, but I like this plan. The illusion is a nice touch.

  14. #17084
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Modify memory is the tough one, but I like this plan. The illusion is a nice touch.
    Beadle is pretty good at figuring out weird ways to use magic and other such powers, I've discovered. ^_^
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  15. #17085
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Beadle is pretty good at figuring out weird ways to use magic and other such powers, I've discovered. ^_^
    He in your D&D group?

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