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  1. #15301
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Yeah, Deadpool doesn't interrogate the morality of his actions but that's not what holier than thou means.

    To be holier than thou is to have a smug air of piety or moral superiority. TLOU2, to my knowledge, doesn't have a function whereby it offers you the "correct" option to indicate as position of smugness.

    It gives you shitty options and shitty options alone because the story is about those bad decisions. That's not a smugness to it, that's it deliberately trying to make you face the unpleasantness of those actions.

    Again, one can criticise the execution, TLOU2 is definitely not a subtle game by any stretch of the imagination, but that's not holier than thou.
    The decisions are shitty, but when Abby makes them it is the "right" or "correct" decision, regardless of how morally superior it is. To the point where- from what I've come to understand from what I've seen and read concerning the game- she gets into disagreements with her 'friends' because she knows they're wrong and even though they disagree with her she knows she is making the "right" or "correct" decision and they just can't see it.

    Which is the definition of holier-than-thou. At least according to what you've said, pretty sure?
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

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  2. #15302
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    The decisions are shitty, but when Abby makes them it is the "right" or "correct" decision, regardless of how morally superior it is. To the point where- from what I've come to understand from what I've seen and read concerning the game- she gets into disagreements with her 'friends' because she knows they're wrong and even though they disagree with her she knows she is making the "right" or "correct" decision and they just can't see it.

    Which is the definition of holier-than-thou. At least according to what you've said, pretty sure?
    Abby makes decisions in the game that are unambiguously condemned by both characters in the game and implicitly by the narrative, some key examples are: spoilers:
    murdering Joel and almost murdering the pregnant Dina and Ellie.
    end of spoilers

    She also makes controversial choices that are condemned by characters in the setting but are clearly endorsed by the narrative; spoilers:
    befriending Lev and protecting him despite their respective cultures being at war.
    end of spoilers

    She's also, as far as I've seen, seldom smug about it or lords her sense of moral superiority over anyone. Her behaviour isn't holier than thou, she has convictions and sometimes she's right and other times she's wrong.

    Also, my point was about the larger tone of the game itself, which was what Dog seemed to be driving at and what Yun was talking about rather than Abby specifically. I don't think saying "look at how shitty and pointless cycles of revenge are," is particularly fertile ground for appearing holier than thou.

    I'm aware this is semantics to an extent but I genuinely don't get what Dog meant by the comment.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 07-05-2020 at 10:58 AM.
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  3. #15303
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    *sigh*

    Like, I've not played the game nor do I have any intention of doing so, but I have read/watched enough intelligent critiques of the game and talked with friends of mine who have played it to be able to tell you that this is take is flatly untrue.

    By all means, dislike the creative choices in the game and their implementation but do try to not just lie about it's thematic messages.



    What do you mean by "holier than thou" in this context?
    Abby tortured and killed Joel in front of Ellie and didn't get any comeuppance from it. she got her revenge and literally got away with it. ellie gave up her...........i wanna say "wife" and adopted son for a chance to merc her and in the end let her go.

    i'm all for "revenge is bad" storylines but this one wasn't a good one.

  4. #15304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    I mean he's been doing it ever since he called Abby a transgender woman in his big spoiler post which I saw no evidence for and from what Neil himself mentioned as an unfounded rumor. So I just chalked it up as the kind of hate train people get on on the net where facts matter less than outrage.
    please don't lump me in with the "hate train". if i made a mistake about her gender, i am sorry for it. but do not equate my dislike of the game's story with such things.

  5. #15305
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    Abby tortured and killed Joel in front of Ellie and didn't get any comeuppance from it. she got her revenge and literally got away with it. ellie gave up her...........i wanna say "wife" and adopted son for a chance to merc her and in the end let her go.

    i'm all for "revenge is bad" storylines but this one wasn't a good one.
    I am amazed at this response.

    The immediate comeuppance for Abby killing Joel is that Ellie literally hunts down and murders all of her friends, including her lover and her friend who is pregnant, in pursuit of Abby.

    That is not "no consequences," that is a whole acre of consequences.

    Again, you can dislike the game and its execution of its ideas, but to claim that Abby's actions of revenge are endorsed by the narrative or that there are no consequences is flatly not true.
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  6. #15306
    Reborn Samurai Len Ikari145's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    Abby tortured and killed Joel in front of Ellie and didn't get any comeuppance from it. she got her revenge and literally got away with it. ellie gave up her...........i wanna say "wife" and adopted son for a chance to merc her and in the end let her go.

    i'm all for "revenge is bad" storylines but this one wasn't a good one.
    Not to mention just how the narrative desperately trying to emotionally manipulate you into sympathizing Abby while having you play as her for the first half of the game and the subtext that tries to convince you that Joel and Ellie were the "bad guys" in this, which falls flat when she just killed one of the two protagonists of the original game in a brutal and ignoble fashion, not to mention the horrible crap that she and her friggin' cult perform.
    Ichigo: What even *are* you?!

    Kenpachi: Some say my mother was a train. Some say that I'm a rejected Godzilla monster too strong for the series canon. But everyone says: I'M THE KEEEEENPACHIIIIII!!!!

  7. #15307
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    I am amazed at this response.

    The immediate comeuppance for Abby killing Joel is that Ellie literally hunts down and murders all of her friends, including her lover and her friend who is pregnant, in pursuit of Abby.

    That is not "no consequences," that is a whole acre of consequences.

    Again, you can dislike the game and its execution of its ideas, but to claim that Abby's actions of revenge are endorsed by the narrative or that there are no consequences is flatly not true.
    sigh.

    i'm leaving for a bit before i lose my cool and say something that's gonna get me in trouble.

  8. #15308
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    Not to mention just how the narrative desperately trying to emotionally manipulate you into sympathizing Abby while having you play as her for the first half of the game and the subtext that tries to convince you that Joel and Ellie were the "bad guys" in this, which falls flat when she just killed one of the two protagonists of the original game in a brutal and ignoble fashion, not to mention the horrible crap that she and her friggin' cult perform.
    I mean, from a strictly utilitarian point of view, Joel was a bad guy.

    The whole point of the ending of TLOU1 is that Joel, due to his trauma around the death of his biological daughter and his inability to deal with problems outside of violence, leads him to brutally murder a bunch of largely innocent people and, for all intents and purposes, dooms the world by destroying the only chance at a cure.

    Dooming the world for the life of one person, from a strictly utilitarian point of view, is the action of a bad guy.

    Now this tension, this juxtaposition, is what makes the ending - and Joel as a character - compelling. This is also not claim that Abby is a "good guy" either. TLOU and the sequel especially are /very/ preoccupied with pointing out that people are not divisible by the binary of good vs bad but they are varying shades of grey and "good men" like Joel are capable of intensely evil and violent things given the right circumstances.
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  9. #15309
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    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    please don't lump me in with the "hate train". if i made a mistake about her gender, i am sorry for it. but do not equate my dislike of the game's story with such things.
    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    sigh.

    i'm leaving for a bit before i lose my cool and say something that's gonna get me in trouble.
    If you can't even have discussion about this game without losing your cool enough to need to step back. I am not sure how you can so adamantly deny being on some kind of hate train about it.

  10. #15310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    If you can't even have discussion about this game without losing your cool enough to need to step back. I am not sure how you can so adamantly deny being on some kind of hate train about it.
    .....................

    then i guess i don't need to be here anymore. you win.

  11. #15311
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    If you can't even have discussion about this game without losing your cool enough to need to step back. I am not sure how you can so adamantly deny being on some kind of hate train about it.
    Why you always gotta argue in bad-faith and generally be an ass?
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

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  12. #15312
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    no no. he's right. if that's how he feels, then i'm just gonna leave. people seem to have problems with my opinions. so i'm save everyone the trouble and just not be here anymore.

  13. #15313
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    sigh.

    i'm leaving for a bit before i lose my cool and say something that's gonna get me in trouble.
    How are you going into the trouble? I don't understand what you're reaching for here.

    Unless you're going to either cuss me out, espouse some form of hate speech or... I don't know... spam a load of threads about Abby, I don't get what the danger for you here is.
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  14. #15314
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    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    .....................

    then i guess i don't need to be here anymore. you win.
    I am not trying to run anyone off. But largely the criticism of this game has been bad faith arguments and people just venting. Infact I've seen almost nothing but hyperbolic venting of this game here since it came out. That's the issue I have, Not with you specifically. I should of worded it differently than I did. Apologies for that, i'll leave you be about it.
    Last edited by Farealmer; 07-05-2020 at 12:08 PM.

  15. #15315
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    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    new one piece out.

    i'm not even gonna say it in spoiler tags. just...............damn.
    It's a neat twist, and there are some generally interesting developments.

    Yamato seems to be pretty darn strong, which makes sense considering it's Kaido's kid.

    Though, if the assumption that Yamato is to marry one of Big Mom's children for a stronger alliance holds true, I wonder who from Big Mom will offer up for the marriage.
    Quote Originally Posted by grampagen View Post
    MHA 277

    spoilers:
    img]https://i.imgur.com/lKFC1LB.jpg
    ...whatever you say, Liquid. One day you might be interesting.
    end of spoilers

    Bakugo, Endeavour and Gran Torino got some great working synergy, and Mt Lady doing something useful.
    I kinda love Shigaraki's attitude in general this entire arc. He's just so happy and motivated. He's got all these new powers, a definitive goal he's aiming for and... friends more or less. He's on top of the world he's going to burn down and it really shows in his positive outlook. It's delightful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    Black Clover: spoilers:
    Okay, the battle between Yami and Dante has become absolutely insane. 80% Dante is firing off micro-black holes that can carve large holes in mountains and he can alter gravity to distort space itself so that even Yami's dimensional slashes just glance off of him. Yami's new techniques are equally ridiculous. I'm also certain at this point that Yami is going to be captured after hearing about Dante's explanation regarding how a Devil Possessor's power output works. There's no way that we'll be denied the privilege to see what the Triad at their 100% of their maximum are capable of before this arc is done.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    Is this the first mountain buster feat of the series? I think it is.

    It would be pretty disappointing if one of the triad goes down before going all out, especially if it's to just one captain considering what the other two have pulled off so far. But just how will Dante get out of this devastating predicament is the question. Next week will be quite interesting.
    end of spoilers

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