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  1. #24841
    E-Liter3K Scoped Headshot The MunchKING's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Yeah, Seals of the Dragon Ars Magnus. For the fightee part.
    Yeah but the thing you use to summon monsters with Ki are called "Seals of Invocation" so it's not a dumb mistake.

    Not sure the Essential Ability (which can only be level 1) layers atop the CP gifts, but if it does then the whole thing maxes out at x4. For a whole LOT of expense, but some might find that worth it. A pure summoner doesn't need the stats so much, anyway, so they might convince their GM to allow them to dump two or three level-up CP into that.
    Nah, Superior Magic Recovery 3 gets you x 4 your base regen. and the Essential ability says it works exactly the same as that, so you could buy it three times for another +3 multiplier. capping out at x7.

    Or at least that's how Siriel said it worked in his game. I guess you could read it differently in that it specifically uses the words "Double", "Triple", and "Quadruple". But why would you?
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  2. #24842
    E-Liter3K Scoped Headshot The MunchKING's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Less-important with Summoners, to be fair. And with the Seals, Beadle's going to be jacking his Power up starting ~level 6, which WILL affect his MA in combat.
    I would say SOLEY important for Summoners. Doesn't it determine your Zeon, Zeon Recovery, and like three of your Summoning powers? I thought Summoners were pretty close to SAD. And that Attribute was Power.
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  3. #24843
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    Yeah but the thing you use to summon monsters with Ki are called "Seals of Invocation" so it's not a dumb mistake.
    Didn't say it was.

    Nah, Superior Magic Recovery 3 gets you x 4 your base regen.
    That part is me failing at math. Right.

    and the Essential ability says it works exactly the same as that, so you could buy it three times for another +3 multiplier. capping out at x7.

    Or at least that's how Siriel said it worked in his game. I guess you could read it differently in that it specifically uses the words "Double", "Triple", and "Quadruple". But why would you?
    I'll have a look. I must have missed the part where it says double, triple, and quadruple in the Essential ability, and it's not that you can't just take it once, period. In the old forums, it was pointed out that unless an essential ability actually said it had multiple levels, you could only get the first level of any CP gift with one.

    But that part from Siriel has to do with how bonuses stack in Anima. If you have a multiplier and stack it with another multiplier, it adds to the first one, it doesn't multiply it.

    So if you have X4 magic recovery, and get another x4 magic recovery ability, it's not 4 x 4 = 16, or 4 + 4 = 8. X4 is 'three multiples' (x2 --> x3 -- x4), so that would be X4 + 3 = x7.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

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    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  4. #24844
    E-Liter3K Scoped Headshot The MunchKING's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    I'll have a look. I must have missed the part where it says double, triple, and quadruple in the Essential ability, and it's not that you can't just take it once, period.
    All it says is that it "works exactly the same way as the creation advantages that have the same name" (emphasis mine). It doesn't give any sort of description for that one specifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    But that part from Siriel has to do with how bonuses stack in Anima. If you have a multiplier and stack it with another multiplier, it adds to the first one, it doesn't multiply it.

    So if you have X4 magic recovery, and get another x4 magic recovery ability, it's not 4 x 4 = 16, or 4 + 4 = 8. X4 is 'three multiples' (x2 --> x3 -- x4), so that would be X4 + 3 = x7.
    Well yes, and I explicitly asked about that working with Zeon Recovery multipliers and he was like, that's the way it works. (something LIKE that, I would have to look it up for what he actually said).
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  5. #24845
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    I would say SOLEY important for Summoners. Doesn't it determine your Zeon, Zeon Recovery, and like three of your Summoning powers? I thought Summoners were pretty close to SAD. And that Attribute was Power.
    Okay, so the following has to do with how I approach things, as I note. Other people might approach it differently and do just fine. ^_^

    Not so much FOR ME, because I overall view stats as less-important for summoners as a whole. For a summoner, it's more important for them to be working out the nitty gritty of when to purchase half-price Zeon multipliers, using their CP to buy Superior Magic Recovery (up to that x4 you mentioned), and such. Is Power important? Somewhat, but not compared to mages, who need a really great MA for actual accumulation when the crap hits the fan (rather than recovery).

    Getting a base bonus with one's summoning skill up another 5 isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things - it's the level bonuses and DP points sunk into them that make the huge difference.

    There's a whole lot of better ways to get recovery than one point of power (I mean, getting 15 base is nice, but then you need two more or something to get to 20, where you could be spending those level-up CP on magical recovery), and a Sheelie can give some really good versatility to a Summoner.

    I mean, there are tons of ways to make a character, but that's how I approach it. I'm sure you would approach it differently, and it would work just fine - you're a wiz at making characters - but per how I manage my summoners (NPC's, mostly), stats are actually less important than gifts and such. Taking a brief shot to the Power stat to pick up a sheelie - if that's what the character seems to want for my concept - isn't a big deal for me, especially if I'm close to getting magic number Power 12 anyway and just need to stick it out a level or two.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 10-19-2021 at 11:30 AM.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  6. #24846
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    All it says is that it "works exactly the same way as the creation advantages that have the same name" (emphasis mine). It doesn't give any sort of description for that one specifically.
    Yeah, it's not clear.

    Long time ago, discussing it on the forums, found out that unless the Essential Ability actually states it can be taken more than once, or that it has levels, basically it's a one-time thing. So you buy Superior Magical Recovery through the Essential stuff, you can buy level one. That's all. Which is why CP is better, really.

    But that's not actually noted in the book, which...is a bit of a pain.

    Granted, some GM's would be fine with players taking it three times, which is cool for their game. Also, it ISN'T clear, so...not like the rules say NO, either, not in the very-poorly-written rulebook. ^_^

    Well yes, and I explicitly asked about that working with Zeon Recovery multipliers and he was like, that's the way it works. (something LIKE that, I would have to look it up for what he actually said).
    And there you go. If you can get the three levels with Essential abilities, and you buy all three of the gifts, it comes out to x7.

    If it's only one level with Essential, and you buy all three levels of the gift, it's actually x5 (thanks to my math mistake! ).

    Edit: x5 is still absolutely insane, and I cannot think of a single character I have made up nor seen that wouldn't just be happy with that. O_O
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 10-19-2021 at 11:32 AM.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  7. #24847
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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  8. #24848
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    ...it might actually mention the 'only once with an Essential Ability' in Those Who Walked By My Cat (unsurprisingly, there's more work on the Essential Abilities in that book, including some absolutely ridiculous ones). I'll check when I get home.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  9. #24849
    E-Liter3K Scoped Headshot The MunchKING's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Not so much FOR ME, because I overall view stats as less-important for summoners as a whole. For a summoner, it's more important for them to be working out the nitty gritty of when to purchase half-price Zeon multipliers, using their CP to buy Superior Magic Recovery (up to that x4 you mentioned), and such. Is Power important? Somewhat, but not compared to mages, who need a really great MA for actual accumulation when the crap hits the fan (rather than recovery).
    Yeah, if I was going to make a straight summoner (rather than a fighter Summoner that need Blood of the Dragon), I'd grab that Zeon recovery from the beginning so I could bounce back faster. That way I wouldn't have to spend my stat boosts on it later. Add +3 to a stat and you could have power 13 and 4x multiplier at the mere cost of some crippling character flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Getting a base bonus with one's summoning skill up another 5 isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things - it's the level bonuses and DP points sunk into them that make the huge difference.
    Yeah, you're right about that. It mostly helps with the Zeon/Recovery because it's a multiplier situation.

    Taking a brief shot to the Power stat to pick up a sheelie - if that's what the character seems to want for my concept - isn't a big deal for me.
    I can understand that. I mean heck, I was contemplating a Sanctum on a Nexus and those things cost permanent Zeon or Power for EACH effect you put into it, so it was a major resource drain.

    Although one of the effects was +2-3 Power when in your Sanctum, so that helped mitigate the loss somewhat.
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  10. #24850
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    I will note that A LOT of the things we agreed and/or found out in the old forums have since been declared incorrect.

    Mainly because Carlos is making the rules up on the spot and changes his mind all the time is regularly clarifying things.

    Like there was a clear consensus on the forums that without Inhumanity, you could get to 319, and without Zen you could get to 439. This was common across Edge, Cipher and FFG forums.

    Turns out no. Carlos dixxit is that without Inhumanity you cap at 240, and without Zen you cap at 320. Which makes ZERO sense, but… bleh.

  11. #24851
    E-Liter3K Scoped Headshot The MunchKING's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    ...it might actually mention the 'only once with an Essential Ability' in Those Who Walked By My Cat (unsurprisingly, there's more work on the Essential Abilities in that book, including some absolutely ridiculous ones). I'll check when I get home.

    Quote Originally Posted by English Version of the Book
    Essential Abilities are the innate capabilities of a creature, the
    characteristics that define its nature. Advantages have costs in DP, while
    Disadvantages provide additional DP that can be used to purchase
    other Essential Abilities or powers. There is no limit to the number of
    Advantages or Disadvantages that can be purchased for a creature. A list
    of the available Essential Abilities follows. Unless otherwise indicated in the
    description, each ability may only be purchased once.
    That one does actually say that, but it COULD be argued that this only applies to the ones that it mentions...
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  12. #24852
    JUST DO IT?!?! Postmania's Avatar
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    Looks different from the anime, but still fun to me. I'll probably check it out
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  13. #24853
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postmania View Post


    Looks different from the anime, but still fun to me. I'll probably check it out
    it made a much better impression on me than the OP, which felt like it was just trying to ape the anime poorly, whereas this feels like it's trying to be it's own thing a lot more.

    I don't expect the actual show to be like this, this is far too concept-y but it's a slick little thing.

    I'm still not going to watch it in all likelihood because [in perhaps my most controversial anime opinion] I didn't really get on with original Cowboy Bebop.
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  14. #24854
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    Yeah, if I was going to make a straight summoner (rather than a fighter Summoner that need Blood of the Dragon), I'd grab that Zeon recovery from the beginning so I could bounce back faster. That way I wouldn't have to spend my stat boosts on it later. Add +3 to a stat and you could have power 13 and 4x multiplier at the mere cost of some crippling character flaws.
    That's fair. There are other things to spend it on, is all. But that idea would work quite nicely.

    Yeah, you're right about that. It mostly helps with the Zeon/Recovery because it's a multiplier situation.
    I agree. There's somewhat LESS of a need for it, is all I'm saying, as it's a LOOOOT of points sunk into power after 10 to get some big differences in the MA. Worth it in the end, but not a driving goal for me for a Summoner. If I'm going to 15, I'll get there eventually. ^_^

    But again, different perspectives!

    I can understand that. I mean heck, I was contemplating a Sanctum on a Nexus and those things cost permanent Zeon or Power for EACH effect you put into it, so it was a major resource drain.

    Although one of the effects was +2-3 Power when in your Sanctum, so that helped mitigate the loss somewhat.
    Absolutely.

    I like travelling players, so I don't normally think of Sanctums. Nor nodes, mostly because...there are only about seven natural nodes over all of gaia, and they're either corrupted or something big is already sleeping there (no surprise). There are a few artificial nodes, but...same problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    I will note that A LOT of the things we agreed and/or found out in the old forums have since been declared incorrect.

    Mainly because Carlos is making the rules up on the spot and changes his mind all the time is regularly clarifying things.

    Like there was a clear consensus on the forums that without Inhumanity, you could get to 319, and without Zen you could get to 439. This was common across Edge, Cipher and FFG forums.

    Turns out no. Carlos dixxit is that without Inhumanity you cap at 240, and without Zen you cap at 320. Which makes ZERO sense, but… bleh.
    Absolutely (and it's 280 and 320).

    However, I found the line, and it IS in 'Those Who Walked Past My Cat'.

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    That one does actually say that, but it COULD be argued that this only applies to the ones that it mentions...
    Okay, so I had worked out, logically, the various reasons why (based on core AND TWWPMC) you could only buy them once. TWWPMC lumps all of the abilities together - magical, psychic, and normal - and says the same thing, 'You can't buy advantages more than once'. Etc.

    I then looked up Belphe, noting that the Belphe has 'Superior Magic Recovery'. Not I, II, III, but just that. I figured that sealed the deal.

    Aha - but I was smart enough to check the Infinity Orb. Lo, under 'Essential Abilities', it has "Magic Recovery 3".

    [me] -_-

    Granted, the Infinite Orb has a whack of free CP, due to having a Gnosis of 40 (like, 6 Free CP). Maybe it bought the Superior Magic Recovery with those (it...does get 6 CP, automatically, this is most certainly not a 'these characters were created without CP' situation). I would actually need to sit down and work out its point value. And honestly, that sounds like agony thanks to all of its non-defined, bizarro special abilities that are specific to the Orb.

    So...I dunno. MAAAAYBE you can take them more than once? Suffice to say I am no longer sure.

    Myself, I would play it 'once', but wouldn't necessarily say 'House Rule!' if a different GM said 'go crazy'. ^_^
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 10-19-2021 at 01:02 PM.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  15. #24855
    JUST DO IT?!?! Postmania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    it made a much better impression on me than the OP, which felt like it was just trying to ape the anime poorly, whereas this feels like it's trying to be it's own thing a lot more.

    I don't expect the actual show to be like this, this is far too concept-y but it's a slick little thing.

    I'm still not going to watch it in all likelihood because [in perhaps my most controversial anime opinion] I didn't really get on with original Cowboy Bebop.
    I was more of a Samurai Champloo fan myself.
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