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  1. #391
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    Also, it’s worth noting that different countries apply different levels of rigour to enforcing the Inquisition’s rules etc.

    Some countries don’t even allow the Inquisition or Tol Rauko to operate, some just ignore them, some pay lip-service just so they don’t get in trouble and others are more along the lines of “SHE’S A WITCH!!! BURRRRRN HERRRRR!!!”

    So there’s bound to be SOME places in the setting that you can use if you want broadly unfettered supernatural crap.
    There's that.

    In Galgados, pulling some weirdness will get people worried and nervous...but if they decide that you're on the good side (not necessarily the CHURCH side, just not a bad person), they'll be relatively cool with it (though not 'at ease', like in D&D worlds where people take magic as almost a matter of course...which, honestly, is a tad ridiculous unless you're IN a D&D world, where there are tons of mages, mage schools, etc).

    In Kushistan, using magic in a non-world-conquering fashion might get you a job.

    In Togarni, it'll either get you a job, or killed if you turn said job down (not because you're 'using magic', but because 'you're using magic and not supporting Mr. M. Gaul).

    In Alberia, it'll get you revered.

    In Itzi, people will flock to you for survival (if you're at all benevolent).

    In Daphne, if you're a women you'll be hired into their Special Forces (secretly). If you're a man, you'll probably get hoofed out of the country.

    And in Pristinia, nobody -- not even the local Inquisitor (there is only one) -- will even care (I mean, if you're attacking people with it, they'll react poorly, but that's more because "attacking people" rather than "attacking people with magic, specifically"). The Inquisitor will invite you over for a beer, really, and toss a few questions your way to see if you're the kind of person he needs to deal with or just ignore while he sits on his porch, whittling and waiting for an actual supernatural THREAT. At which point he'll probably ask the locals (read: non-human, magic-using beings) for assistance taking care of it.

    Etc.

    Really, the business about 'No Fun Allowed Factions' with regards to the Inquisition is a perfectly natural reaction from a good chunk of the world that seriously suffered under magic for a bloody long time. Yeah, some of it was manipulated by the second level faction, but a lot of it is derived from a (very realistic) perspective that 'Magic allowed a tiny bit of the population to utterly control and enslave a big part of the population, and if you didn't have magic you were dirt', as well as the idea that 'Guy goes power-hungry or bonkers with a sword, he's a threat to stuff in arm's reach; guy goes power-hungry or bonkers with supernatural abilities, he annihilates cities'. It's also not a completely ubiquitous perspective; as Beadle says, there are LOADS of places where players can cut loose more safely.

    It fits with the setting, as presented.

    What comes next in this post I'll preface as my own opinion, and mileage may vary. ^_^

    I've always found the business of how magic is viewed in 'standard D&D worlds' to be utterly unrealistic and somewhat banal; it's great for worlds where the entire point is 'adventure, kill things and take their stuff', but once one gets into the complexities of actual intrigue, politics, rulership, social classes, etc...it becomes somewhat odd that the 90% of the population in the D&D worlds aren't either scared crapless of their magic-types, or utterly enslaved by them.

    Granted, there's always the business of 'gods don't allow it', or 'pantheons look down on it so the Churches prevent it', or 'saccharinely-good (and poorly-dressed) Elven rulers stamp down on such things'*, or 'Powerful Epic-level NPC's of various forms of Goodness run the Good Countries', but those are pretty heavy-handed things as well, really.

    Basically, for me many D&D games/settings seem to run 'There are checks and balances on all of the NPC's, but the players can go hog-wild.' Anima says 'Yeah, the setting treats everyone the same -- NOBODY is allowed to go hog-wild, one needs to find a more tricky way to pull it off.'

    Second-level group of shadowy controllers in Anima, yeah, they're 'everywhere'...while simultaneously specifically noted as 'never really will do anything, unless the entire world is threatened or the OTHER shadowy controllers stick their faces into a situation'. I mean, if one looks at the Wars in the Shadows, detailed rather impressively in Gaia Book II, there was a grand total of ONE terribly massive war that Imperium stuck its nose into over the course of about 1000 years (the Baal situation). They didn't even GET involved in the War of God, which sprang from one of their monumental screw-ups, until (again) Rah's temper tantrum threatened to annihilate the entire world.

    They don't do anything, really (beyond 'will stop the players from blowing up the planet, should they ever reach that level' and 'this particular arm of their organization will stop everyone from just magically making money and crapping on the economy'). They're there as setting background. I rather like it, but mileage varies.

    And when I say 'destroy the world', I'm not talking about 'mankind wars upon itself and nearly destroys itself completely' (been done, they didn't show), or 'A sleeper awakens and annihilates the current culture and empire, sending everyone back to the stone age' (they would take notes, nod heads, and say 'Interesting'). I'm talking 'the world itself is about to be rendered completely sterile of life, no comebacks'.

    Now, if that is what players want to do -- sterilize the entire world (or, I guess, make their own money with magic, and if they can't do that I have the World's Smallest Violin™ to play, just for them ) -- then I would suggest they keep the heck out of my games. ^_^ And I don't need a villain who's looking to eliminate everything as a challenge in my games; there's plenty I can do that's far more interesting than that kind of 'Ultimate Evil' thing (there are better, more complex and interesting forms of Ultimate Evil...).

    I guess players might get miffed that they can't be the Strongest People Around™; I've never felt that to be important, myself.

    * at this point, I'll note that the 'elves' of Anima - the Sylvain - have a history of either being hands-off when it comes to other cultures doing awful things (as long as it doesn't impinge on their civilization), or (on occasion) indulging in genocide against things they don't like. For beings of 'the light', they can be awfully heavy-handed...but then, Anima DOES also make the point that 'the light' isn't necessarily 'good and nice' (just look at some of the Beryls for examples of that, and their actions).
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 08-20-2018 at 07:46 AM.
    Why are we here?

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    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  2. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Big Nicely Detailed Post
    Maybe it's just me but this seems like it was being addressed to me without being addressed to me. -_-'
    Last edited by Farealmer; 08-20-2018 at 08:27 AM.

  3. #393
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Agreed on the light vs dark not equalling good vs evil.

    Barakiel and Edamiel, supposedly on the side of light, are blatantly somewhere between heavily sociopathic even for a deity+ being and utterly batshit nuts. Edamiel really just wants everything to dissolve into nothingness.

    Meanwhile, on the dark side, Noah has some fairly admirable traits and Eriol is basically... fine, really.

    Edit: This is where we need Siriel to come in and do his stuff about even the Shajads ganging up on crazy old Zemial. (*Zemial slips on a banana skin, despite not having any discernible legs* “Dammit Eriol!!”) That scene is now canon in my head.
    Last edited by Beadle; 08-20-2018 at 08:47 AM.

  4. #394
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    Maybe it's just me but this seems like it was being addressed to me without being addressed to me. -_-'
    The first post was addressed to you.

    The second was addressed to Beadle's response to you, and is more of a rambling stream of thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    Agreed on the light vs dark not equalling good vs evil.

    Barakiel and Edamiel, supposedly on the side of light, are blatantly somewhere between heavily sociopathic even for a deity+ being and utterly batshit nuts. Edamiel really just wants everything to dissolve into nothingness.

    Meanwhile, on the dark side, Noah has some fairly admirable traits and Eriol is basically... fine, really.
    Being fair, Edamiel is all messed up, and isn't exactly a good example. She's a Beryl gone insane. As supposedly conceptual entities, they really aren't; they're powerful entities who made decisions to align themselves with various concepts. And Edamiel's decision spectacularly backfired on her.

    But yeah, she's problematic. And Barakiel, ugh.

    That's not getting into how awesomely messed up Azrael's actions have been, to the point where one of my tabletop players, upon finding out about some of the crap Azrael has pulled in the past, basically repudiated her and effectively dumped some 55-odd points of Elan (all of it earned, not purchased) with that spirit. On the spot (asked me if they could immediately 'refuse' Azrael and lose the Elan, and -- seeing how distressed they were -- I allowed for it without them needing to run around doing awful things to try to drop their Elan score with her...though I suppose they could have just made more friends with Dark Beings). I kid you not; Azrael is not well-looked-upon in my tabletop circles (I believe the phrase 'murderous and sadistic fanatic' has been used).

    Basically, light isn't 'good', it's a perspective: order, peace, prosperity, equality, etc. But the game explicitly states that the light overgod, C'iel, has 'a negative face, too'.

    Darkness being strength, growth, evolution, development, and stability (different from order and peace). Sounds bad, but its ultimate goal is, and I quote, 'happiness'. And since when is sorrow or a drive for perfection evil?

    Both are needed. One isn't evil, the other isn't good.

    And the Shajads...you've mentioned Noah, and Eriol. Then there's Erebus (dreams, nightmares, and magic, and unless 'fear' is an evil emotion, I'm having problems seeing how this spirit is 'evil'). Jedah, who manipulates society but does it to 'prevent society from falling into chaos and destruction', who tries to 'lead people into what he feels to be the best of directions' (<-- sure, HIS idea of what's good, but then...these are Shajads, part of their philosophy is about 'the better/smarter/wiser people run the place, not a committee of the norm').

    Even the most powerful of the Shajads -- Meseguis -- isn't SUPPORTING hate, pain, and sorrow, but trying to help people get past them by pushing people toward vengeance in order to find peace.

    Really, there are a whopping two of them who qualify as 'evil', and that's Zemial who has gone utterly bonkers (like Edamiel on the Beryl side, and also wanting the Universe to disappear, except for him he wants it to go in a bang, not a whimper) and Abbadon, who the other Shajads look at as 'the weenie who decided to synchronize with the idea of Eeeeeevil....' (I'm fairly sure that Meseguis would flat-out kill Abbadon if Gaira let her get away with it).
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 08-20-2018 at 09:00 AM.
    Why are we here?

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    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  5. #395
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    There's actually a hilarious story in Gaia II about Erebus personally trying to fix a problem with reality (has to do with the Barrier and an Aeon), and messing it up again and again and again (everything he tries just makes it worse...it's like an Imperium plan in its WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?ness, and Imperium even gets involved to even more hilarity). This continues until he finally throws up his hands in embarrassment and says 'the only smart thing to do is leave well enough alone, as messed up as I've already made it', and sorrowfully leaves the area forever.

    Save for his 'shadow', left behind as an observer, because he strongly feels everything is his colossal mistake and he should at least witness the fallout.

    This, to me, does not speak of EVIL SPIRIT™.

    Erebus is one of my favourites. ^_^
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  6. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    The first post was addressed to you.

    The second was addressed to Beadle's response to you, and is more of a rambling stream of thought.
    Beadle was quoting you, not me. If it wasn't addressed to me you shouldn't of dragged my quotes into it and used them as a basis to deconstruct my position. It feels like you are using Beadle to have a conversation about me around me. If that's not you intention apologies, but it seems like it. If you just want to discuss the setting with Beadle keep my posts out of it unless you want to address the points with me directly. It comes off as rude otherwise. I know this is coming off as too blunt(and maybe a little rude), but I don't like people refuting my points without even the courtesy of levying them at me directly.

    EDIT: To clarify, I don't mind discussing the anima "big brother" factions and why I dislike them in more detail if that's what you wanted to do. But if you don't wish to do so you shouldn't put counterpoints out in a way that isn't addressed to me but is obviously addressing my stance.
    Last edited by Farealmer; 08-20-2018 at 09:21 AM.

  7. #397
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    Beadle was quoting you, not me. If it wasn't addressed to me you shouldn't of dragged my quotes into it and used them as a basis to deconstruct my position. It feels like you are using Beadle to have a conversation about me around me. If that's not you intention apologies, but it seems like it. If you just want to discuss the setting with Beadle keep my posts out of it unless you want to address the points with me directly. It comes off as rude otherwise. I know this is coming off as too blunt(and maybe a little rude), but I don't like people refuting my points without even the courtesy of levying them at me directly.

    EDIT: To clarify, I don't mind discussing the anima "big brother" factions and why I dislike them in more detail if that's what you wanted to do. But if you don't wish to do so you shouldn't put counterpoints out in a way that isn't addressed to me but is obviously addressing my stance.
    My apologies for the misunderstanding; no 'hidden replies' are intended. I read threads post by post, and follow conversations that way, then write about what I'm thinking (including further considerations), and that's what happened here. I should take into account that other people don't read threads the same way, or have a different perspective on the posting.
    Why are we here?

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    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  8. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    Beadle was quoting you, not me. If it wasn't addressed to me you shouldn't of dragged my quotes into it and used them as a basis to deconstruct my position. It feels like you are using Beadle to have a conversation about me around me. If that's not you intention apologies, but it seems like it. If you just want to discuss the setting with Beadle keep my posts out of it unless you want to address the points with me directly. It comes off as rude otherwise. I know this is coming off as too blunt(and maybe a little rude), but I don't like people refuting my points without even the courtesy of levying them at me directly.

    EDIT: To clarify, I don't mind discussing the anima "big brother" factions and why I dislike them in more detail if that's what you wanted to do. But if you don't wish to do so you shouldn't put counterpoints out in a way that isn't addressed to me but is obviously addressing my stance.
    Could also be reading too much into it.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

    Arx Inosaan

  9. #399
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    Could also be reading too much into it.
    As a participant, I'll just ask that we let this drop with my apology for any misunderstanding. ^_^ I don't want my mistake blowing up Downtown or anything.
    Why are we here?

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    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    As a participant, I'll just ask that we let this drop with my apology for any misunderstanding. ^_^ I don't want my mistake blowing up Downtown or anything.
    *scurries back to the Dead City*

    So be it. I should probably get to finishing that sheet I said I'd have finished by now, anyway ^^"
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

    Arx Inosaan

  11. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    My apologies for the misunderstanding; no 'hidden replies' are intended. I read threads post by post, and follow conversations that way, then write about what I'm thinking (including further considerations), and that's what happened here. I should take into account that other people don't read threads the same way, or have a different perspective on the posting.
    Thanks for the clarification! Since I have you here I will address some of the stuff you said above in order to clarify my position on these things.

    Really, the business about 'No Fun Allowed Factions' with regards to the Inquisition is a perfectly natural reaction from a good chunk of the world that seriously suffered under magic for a bloody long time. Yeah, some of it was manipulated by the second level faction, but a lot of it is derived from a (very realistic) perspective that 'Magic allowed a tiny bit of the population to utterly control and enslave a big part of the population, and if you didn't have magic you were dirt', as well as the idea that 'Guy goes power-hungry or bonkers with a sword, he's a threat to stuff in arm's reach; guy goes power-hungry or bonkers with supernatural abilities, he annihilates cities'. It's also not a completely ubiquitous perspective; as Beadle says, there are LOADS of places where players can cut loose more safely.

    It fits with the setting, as presented.
    It's just like Dragon Age in that regard.

    Second-level group of shadowy controllers in Anima, yeah, they're 'everywhere'...while simultaneously specifically noted as 'never really will do anything, unless the entire world is threatened or the OTHER shadowy controllers stick their faces into a situation'. I mean, if one looks at the Wars in the Shadows, detailed rather impressively in Gaia Book II, there was a grand total of ONE terribly massive war that Imperium stuck its nose into over the course of about 1000 years (the Baal situation). They didn't even GET involved in the War of God, which sprang from one of their monumental screw-ups, until (again) Rah's temper tantrum threatened to annihilate the entire world.
    But the thing is that's just a made up thing in a made up setting to justify limiting the player. It's not too dissimilar from Planescape in that regard where they make Sigil whole cloth from nothing, place in the center of the Outlands, make it the most important city in the multiverse, then have to make a bunch of obnoxious and OP stuff to justify it still being there. Which was really just a "keep the players in line" mechanism. They created the problem to begin with then "solved" it a way that did what they really wanted to do, which was keep the players in line.

    For PS it made *some* degree of sense, in 2nd edition outside plot devices you couldn't really get that ridiculous in terms of stuff a player could do for the most part(Admittedly I don't know every thing you can do in 2nd edition). But anima gets into JJBA stuff, then makes two factions to justify why people with that stuff cannot effect meaningful change on the setting. If they didn't want that to begin with they shouldn't of made "surf on light" a thing that could happen in that game. That's my biggest issue, not "players might get miffed that they can't be the Strongest People Around™;" it's here all this cool stuff taking up space because if you try it you'll get destroyed utterly by a ton of NPC's who don't like people doing it.

    The Imperiums **** up making the setting what it is could of been done in many other ways that didn't require them specifically around. Magic and the supernatural could be tamed in many ways that didn't require the Inquisition around. They are anti-PC monstering organizations first and setting things second. It feels like the guy would of been better off writing a novel if he didn't want to risk his setting getting nuked by murderhobos. But don't put epic abilities in then punish people for trying to be epic. I can like both high and low power games. Not as much high power games that want to be run as low power games. Since you brought up D&D I would say that is one of my issues with it. It can't decide which it wants to be and the fanbase reflects this problem. Most infamously manifested in martial-caster disparity.

    It's not the settings job to "keep the players in line", it's the GM's and the players themselves being reasonable people you'd want to RP with. That's the big issue I have with anti-PC setting stuff.
    Last edited by Farealmer; 08-20-2018 at 10:27 AM.

  12. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    Could also be reading too much into it.
    I've been accused of that plenty in my time, so it's possible. But if I quoted you and said hi then addressed your reply specifically in a post that wasn't directed at you(like the one above) without quoting you, I would expect you to at least be curious why I didn't say it to you when I quoted you here.

  13. #403
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    Thanks for the clarification! Since I have you here I will address some of the stuff you said above in order to clarify my position on these things.
    Cool.

    It's just like Dragon Age in that regard.
    In a way, yes.

    But the thing is that's just a made up thing in a made up setting to justify limiting the player. It's not too dissimilar from Planescape in that regard where they make Sigil whole cloth from nothing, place in the center of the Outlands, make it the most important city in the multiverse, then have to make a bunch of obnoxious and OP stuff to justify it still being there. Which was really just a "keep the players in line" mechanism. They created the problem to begin with then "solved" it a way that did what they really wanted to do, which was keep the players in line.
    I get what you're saying, here.

    I don't personally feel it's that, which I will explain, but I certainly get what you're saying.

    But anima gets into JJBA stuff, then makes two factions to justify why people with that stuff cannot effect meaningful change on the setting. If they didn't want that to begin with they shouldn't of made "surf on light" a thing that could happen in that game. That's my biggest issue, not "players might get miffed that they can't be the Strongest People Around™;" it's here all this cool stuff taking up space because if you try it you'll get destroyed utterly by a ton of NPC's who don't like people doing it.
    I get that as well. You're not the first person to have these issues with Anima, and I do understand that point of view.

    So, my feelings.

    The setting is as the setting is because that's the setting the game designer envisioned. He WANTED a setting where everyone needed to hold back -- including the NPC's, because everyone is operating under these constraints. He wanted something where everyone maneuvered around one another, where there was tons of intrigue and secret organizations in the shadows rather than 'Screw this, magic throwdown to solve all problems!', and yeah, there were other ways he could have done this, but he liked this way. Even the Inquisition can't just monster around killing everyone and abusing its powers, because there ARE people strong enough to give it a headache, and if it came to open war between the groups, things would get ugly really quick (and the normal people might not exactly be supporting the Inquisition any more, if one of their battles against 'supernatural evil' obliterated a couple of million people in a city...).

    Heck, the Inquisition itself isn't 100% rigid - it's not a hard counter to abuse of power, it's just something to keep the players on their toes. It's full of people who have different opinions on the whole thing, and different methods, and even has its own opposition WITHIN the Church (Nathaniel). And the Inquisition HAS cooperated with supernatural stuff, when necessary (Baal springs to mind, but there have been loads of other times where they've decided 'nah, THAT group is the big problem, if I need to team up with this devlish sorcerer, so be it'). And there are only so many Inquisitors, and they're not EVERYWHERE. I mean, the GM could play it that way, but that's not the way the setting is displayed. It's enough to make the players think twice about going all high-fantasy/D&D and firing off magic on all cylinders to solve all problems. But when the chips are down -- or in certain places -- the players can still cut loose. And might need to, damn the consequences! Worry about that AFTER, because this is critical right now!

    And for me, that it becomes a more rare thing means that when they do pull off the madness, use their best stuff...it's all the more special.

    That it does enforce caution -- rather than hard limits -- on character use of power is part and parcel of this setting. And includes all of the other NPC's and beings of power in that setting, who have to keep things under wraps. And that caution, as noted, is a sliding scale. It's not absolute. There are places where ZERO caution is needed. There are places where some stuff is looked upon badly, but other stuff isn't. There are places where one must be wary regardless of what one uses. And there are places where it's really dangerous to use supernatural stuff, and there's a sliding scale even on that.

    But there are no hard limits, no 'if you do this, the Inquisition will always find you!' *twirls mustache* ^_^ There's just the knowledge that at some point, actions might have consequences.

    And that includes some realistic viewpoints with regards to NPC's outside the Inquisition. If one mucks around in Yuri Olsen's head, there's a chance that could backfire spectacularly if someone -- maybe one of Yuri's powerful friends -- figures this out (IF someone figures it out, it's not a cudgel to hang over the players' heads...or shouldn't be, just something to worry about, much like "If I mess with Player A, Player B might come after me if he finds out..."). Now, a GM can ignore all of that, and have the NPC's exist in a vacuum, but the option is open (I don't ignore it, myself)!

    As for Imperium, I personally don't feel it was just shoehorned in. It's pretty obvious the more I read of the book, the more the setting is this enormous webwork of stuff all meshed together, layers within layers, secrets within secrets, etc. I don't personally feel it was put in to satisfy an agenda, other than to assist in making this incredibly rich and mysterious world. No, they weren't required, but one could say the same about ANY particular organization/power/whatever. Having gods, for example, as these great powers in the shadows moving chess pieces around, isn't required in a game, but they're there in D&D. The guy liked the idea, boom, they're there, they do add some stuff to the world, there are things that they will stick their noses into, but mostly they're just....there.

    But don't put epic abilities in then punish people for trying to be epic.
    I understand that perspective, and again, there have been people on the official forums who said exactly the same thing. It's understandable, and a valid point.

    My own perspective is that it's getting people to have epic abilities, and choosing the right time and place to cut loose with everything, because the epic powers of the world work in secret. Somewhat. And depending where one is.

    So, something to illustrate this involving what the designer said, one time. Someone asked them 'If Kisidan and Nerelas [two disgustingly powerful NPC's existing on Gaia] fought, who would lose?' The answer was 'The country in which they battle.'

    This is rather realistic (given the power levels and the actual rules about the effects of tossing around said power!), and -- like all of such things throughout the world's history (and there's a lot of crap like this in Anima's history) -- influences the world's present.

    The powerful people in Anima know that if they go at each other full-tilt -- if, for example, Matthew Gaul just takes all of his High Arbiters and shows up in Archangel to try to take the throne from the Empress after battling against her Knights of the Seventh Heaven and other characters who might be on hand -- things are going to get wrecked. Millions will die. Winning will actually become losing, because everyone else of that level of power will probably get involved, or turn against them. So will the people. The hidden organizations (not Imperium, but other, lesser organizations like Samael) will most certainly step in as well. Even the Church knows this, hence it not sending 1000 High Inquisitors (I exaggerate, word of god says there are about 100) to try to burn everyone on the Island of Varja, for example.

    There's no guarantee of winning, and everyone loses.

    And they know this, because the history of the world is full of this kind of madness. Countries devastated, landmasses shattered, the world nearly destroyed a couple of times. And people -- the 'common' people -- always the victims, always suffering the most. Again, realistic.

    So they work quietly. They use their greatest power only when they must, otherwise it's battles in the shadows, the occasional 'normal' war happening, intrigue, manipulation of pawns, having lesser people fight for objectives, and so forth.

    This, to me, is somewhat (to use that word again!) realistic. Yes, it's a little odd to be talking about 'realism' in this kind of game, but keeping in mind that yeah, in this world there are these powers, supernatural stuff, great organizations and the like, it's a realistic approach to it. Is it the ONLY realistic approach? Probably not. Is it one that's going to appeal to everyone? Certainly not, as you've clearly demonstrated in these posts!

    But it's one I like.

    It's not an anti-PC thing, from my perspective; it's just the setting itself. That it happens to place some checks and balances upon how people go about doing their businesses, that's a perk for me. Not for everyone, but for me (as both player and GM)? Sure.

    Mileage, it doth vary.

    I figure my own perspective is pretty well beaten into the ground, now. I understand yours, but if you want to clarify further based on what I've written, by all means. I won't really be writing another giant opinion dump in response, though, because...again, I've probably beaten this into the ground.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 08-20-2018 at 11:47 AM.
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  14. #404
    Astonishing Member Lord Falcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    The first post was addressed to you.

    The second was addressed to Beadle's response to you, and is more of a rambling stream of thought.



    Being fair, Edamiel is all messed up, and isn't exactly a good example. She's a Beryl gone insane. As supposedly conceptual entities, they really aren't; they're powerful entities who made decisions to align themselves with various concepts. And Edamiel's decision spectacularly backfired on her.

    But yeah, she's problematic. And Barakiel, ugh.

    That's not getting into how awesomely messed up Azrael's actions have been, to the point where one of my tabletop players, upon finding out about some of the crap Azrael has pulled in the past, basically repudiated her and effectively dumped some 55-odd points of Elan (all of it earned, not purchased) with that spirit. On the spot (asked me if they could immediately 'refuse' Azrael and lose the Elan, and -- seeing how distressed they were -- I allowed for it without them needing to run around doing awful things to try to drop their Elan score with her...though I suppose they could have just made more friends with Dark Beings). I kid you not; Azrael is not well-looked-upon in my tabletop circles (I believe the phrase 'murderous and sadistic fanatic' has been used).

    Basically, light isn't 'good', it's a perspective: order, peace, prosperity, equality, etc. But the game explicitly states that the light overgod, C'iel, has 'a negative face, too'.

    Darkness being strength, growth, evolution, development, and stability (different from order and peace). Sounds bad, but its ultimate goal is, and I quote, 'happiness'. And since when is sorrow or a drive for perfection evil?

    Both are needed. One isn't evil, the other isn't good.

    And the Shajads...you've mentioned Noah, and Eriol. Then there's Erebus (dreams, nightmares, and magic, and unless 'fear' is an evil emotion, I'm having problems seeing how this spirit is 'evil'). Jedah, who manipulates society but does it to 'prevent society from falling into chaos and destruction', who tries to 'lead people into what he feels to be the best of directions' (<-- sure, HIS idea of what's good, but then...these are Shajads, part of their philosophy is about 'the better/smarter/wiser people run the place, not a committee of the norm').

    Even the most powerful of the Shajads -- Meseguis -- isn't SUPPORTING hate, pain, and sorrow, but trying to help people get past them by pushing people toward vengeance in order to find peace.

    Really, there are a whopping two of them who qualify as 'evil', and that's Zemial who has gone utterly bonkers (like Edamiel on the Beryl side, and also wanting the Universe to disappear, except for him he wants it to go in a bang, not a whimper) and Abbadon, who the other Shajads look at as 'the weenie who decided to synchronize with the idea of Eeeeeevil....' (I'm fairly sure that Meseguis would flat-out kill Abbadon if Gaira let her get away with it).
    I don't have Gaia II. What messed up stuff has Azrael done?

  15. #405
    Lin Kuei Grandmaster Sub-Zero MKA's Avatar
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    Man, I wish I had known about the Shajads when making my character. Meseguis is perfect for Ardelyn.


    EDIT: On second thought, scratch that. Ardelyn's literally consumed by grief and hatred, so she's the exact person Meseguis is NOT looking to synch with.
    Last edited by Sub-Zero MKA; 08-20-2018 at 12:39 PM.
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