Downtown Khazan: Ice Cold Utopia

[FistofIron]

X-Men Evo was great.

I need to give it a rewatch.

[master of read]

X-Men Evo was great.

how do i not remember this? i use to watch reruns of it on toon disney!

[Guy1]

Peek-A-Buu-Buu!

[Guy1]

how do i not remember this? i use to watch reruns of it on toon disney!

The episode is A Walk On The Wild Side.

[master of read]

The episode is A Walk On The Wild Side.

now i remember that one.

[Tami]

[Jcogginsa]

Okaaaay, so, am I reading the scans right? Hulk made a magic wish of some sort to have a good fight and to fight and die repeatedly until he got strong enough to blow up a planet?

I kinda need some context here.

There is no indication within the comic itself that the Hulk powered up at all in that fight. The way the Comic presents it, the Hulk walks into that fight at the strongest he's capable of being on his own- The Worldbreaker Hulk, same as the one from World War Hulk.

The argument my opposition is putting forward is "The Hulk made a wish on the wishing well, and because other characters were powered up by the wishing well, that means the Hulk is too"

My counter argument is that those other characters received amps from the Wishing Well because they wished for things that required amps. The implication of the Comic is that the Hulk wanted to be with Betty but free from fear of hurting her, and free from fear of his own rage, and he wanted to fight.

Thus what the Wishing Well did was

A) Put him in a place with no innocent bystanders around, thus allowing him to go all out with no need to hold back
B)Amped up Red She-Hulk to the point that she was his equal, thus meaning he didn't have to be afraid of hurting her
C) Rez everyone who dies so the fight can go on forever.

No part of the Hulk's wish would have required him to be amped up beyond his natural power, and amping him up would have directly made B more difficult.

Furthermore, every character who received an amp from the Wishing Well has their increased power commented on within the text. No one ever acts like the Hulk is being abnormally powerful, no one even mentions the possibility that the Wishing Well is making him stronger.

Doctor Strange is there. A guy who was a Sorcerer Supreme and who had previously fought World War Hulk in combat, and not once does Doctor Strange ever act as if the Hulk is in anyway abnormally stronger than he should be as the worldbreaker. He never even brings up the possibility that the Hulk got amped

The energy that is being released by the Hulk is his own natural Gamma radiation. We see this energy in 633 when the Hulk has his Gamma drained.

i remember it coming up a few years ago and then getting shot down due to the wishing well stuff involved in it. i never saw the event in question so i couldn't judge for myself but general consensus was hulk was not a planet buster due to that.

The point of contention is not "Is Hulk a Planet Buster" it's "Did Hulk receive a power boost".

And the entire argument for "The Hulk got a power boost" boils down to two points

A) The wishing well can amp people, and the Hulk made a wish.
B) The stuff Hulk does in this story is beyond what he's shown himself capable of doing previously.

A is like saying "The Dragonballs can grant someone eternal youth, and Goku made a wish on the Dragonballs. Therefore Goku has eternal youth"

B is a faulty argument because it is an explicitly mentioned plot point that the Hulk is at his strongest known form and is giving his all. Him showing levels of power beyond what he's previously shown is to be expected given what the story says.

[master of read]

There is no indication within the comic itself that the Hulk powered up at all in that fight. The way the Comic presents it, the Hulk walks into that fight at the strongest he's capable of being on his own- The Worldbreaker Hulk, same as the one from World War Hulk.

The argument my opposition is putting forward is "The Hulk made a wish on the wishing well, and because other characters were powered up by the wishing well, that means the Hulk is too"

My counter argument is that those other characters received amps from the Wishing Well because they wished for things that required amps. The implication of the Comic is that the Hulk wanted to be with Betty but free from fear of hurting her, and free from fear of his own rage, and he wanted to fight.

Thus what the Wishing Well did was

A) Put him in a place with no innocent bystanders around, thus allowing him to go all out with no need to hold back
B)Amped up Red She-Hulk to the point that she was his equal, thus meaning he didn't have to be afraid of hurting her
C) Rez everyone who dies so the fight can go on forever.

No part of the Hulk's wish would have required him to be amped up beyond his natural power, and amping him up would have directly made B more difficult.

Furthermore, every character who received an amp from the Wishing Well has their increased power commented on within the text. No one ever acts like the Hulk is being abnormally powerful, no one even mentions the possibility that the Wishing Well is making him stronger.

Doctor Strange is there. A guy who was a Sorcerer Supreme and who had previously fought World War Hulk in combat, and not once does Doctor Strange ever act as if the Hulk is in anyway abnormally stronger than he should be as the worldbreaker. He never even brings up the possibility that the Hulk got amped

The energy that is being released by the Hulk is his own natural Gamma radiation. We see this energy in 633 when the Hulk has his Gamma drained.


The point of contention is not "Is Hulk a Planet Buster" it's "Did Hulk receive a power boost".

And the entire argument for "The Hulk got a power boost" boils down to two points

A) The wishing well can amp people, and the Hulk made a wish.
B) The stuff Hulk does in this story is beyond what he's shown himself capable of doing previously.

A is like saying "The Dragonballs can grant someone eternal youth, and Goku made a wish on the Dragonballs. Therefore Goku has eternal youth"

B is a faulty argument because it is an explicitly mentioned plot point that the Hulk is at his strongest known form and is giving his all. Him showing levels of power beyond what he's previously shown is to be expected given what the story says.

but the contentions come from the fact that said feat happened while hulk was under the effects of the "wishing well" and thus, can't be considered strongest in regards to his established levels of power. that would be like saying pre-skip luffy could throw around a being that's 10 times the size of a normal giant while completely ignoring that he was powered up by outside means.

[Jcogginsa]

but the contentions come from the fact that said feat happened while hulk was under the effects of the "wishing well" and thus, can't be considered strongest in regards to his established levels of power. that would be like saying pre-skip luffy could throw around a being that's 10 times the size of a normal giant while completely ignoring that he was powered up by outside means.

Except there is no evidence that he was powered up by outside means. That is what I am saying.

Everyone else who got powered up had that fact noted within the story, and there was not a single mention of the Hulk getting a boost, despite plenty of people who would be qualified to make such a statement being present. And the story goes out of it's why to explain why he's that strong via means that have nothing to do with the wishing well. This is not a "Shadow Luffy" situation, it's a "Luffy uses Gear 4 for the first time" situation.

Again, it's like saying "Goku looks pretty young, and the Dragonballs can grant eternal youth. Since Goku's made a wish on the Dragonballs, he must have wished for eternal youth"

[Cronus]

There is no indication within the comic itself that the Hulk powered up at all in that fight.

Except you cut off your nose despite your face when you said that Bruce's wish amped RSH. The question remains, why didn't the wish amp Bruce too?

The way the Comic presents it, the Hulk walks into that fight at the strongest he's capable of being on his own- The Worldbreaker Hulk, same as the one from World War Hulk.

No. The way the comic presents it, is Hulk and a number of other main characters in that story were all splashed with wishing well water.

The argument my opposition is putting forward is "The Hulk made a wish on the wishing well, and because other characters were powered up by the wishing well, that means the Hulk is too"

And it's an argument you can't escape when you asserted Bruce's wish amped Red She Hulk.
Again...for the umpteenth time...why didn't Bruce's wish amp him? Can you explain this?

My counter argument is that those other characters received amps from the Wishing Well because they wished for things that required amps.

As did Hulk. Again, Bruce's enemies wishes served to supplement what Bruce wished for (to fight, die and fight some more). What's not to understand?

The implication of the Comic is that the Hulk wanted to be with Betty but free from fear of hurting her, and free from fear of his own rage, and he wanted to fight.

No such implication. Like, not even remotely. The implication of the comic is that most of the folks in that book were juiced up on wishing well magic.

Thus what the Wishing Well did was

A) Put him in a place with no innocent bystanders around, thus allowing him to go all out with no need to hold back

Oh right. Was Jen and Amadeus and Cosimo, etc...were they innocent? Because I'm pretty sure they did nothing wrong and they all died along with Bruce, Betty, Wendigo, etc...

B)Amped up Red She-Hulk to the point that she was his equal, thus meaning he didn't have to be afraid of hurting her

Oh, funny you mention this again, without mentioning the context. Bruce...made the wish that amped Red She Hulk. Isn't that what you said? Yes or no?

If so....why wasn't Bruce amped by the same wish?

C) Rez everyone who dies so the fight can go on forever.

The resurrection was what allowed Bruce to fight without fear of (permanently) harming Betty, so stop already.

No part of the Hulk's wish would have required him to be amped up beyond his natural power,

Funny thing is...no part of Hulk's wish required Betty to powered up either, but that is exactly what happened.

and amping him up would have directly made B more difficult.

Only if he was already a planet buster. Which he wasn't. Period. End of story.

Furthermore, every character who received an amp from the Wishing Well has their increased power commented on within the text. No one ever acts like the Hulk is being abnormally powerful, no one even mentions the possibility that the Wishing Well is making him stronger.

Why would it be necessary to build a commentary that Hulk's strength had been increased when he fought evenly with not one, but TWO guys who were each a 1000 x stronger than they ever were before? And Tyrannus' commentary on RSH being as powerful as Hulk at that time could easily have included the fact that Hulk was amped as well. You are building part of your argument under the ASSUMPTION that Hulk was already planet busting strong.

An assumption. That's it.

Doctor Strange is there. A guy who was a Sorcerer Supreme and who had previously fought World War Hulk in combat, and not once does Doctor Strange ever act as if the Hulk is in anyway abnormally stronger than he should be as the worldbreaker. He never even brings up the possibility that the Hulk got amped

Why would he? How would that commentary have played into his role in that story? You are literally just grasping at straws at this point.

The energy that is being released by the Hulk is his own natural Gamma radiation. We see this energy in 633 when the Hulk has his Gamma drained.

Which has what? To do with anything? If Hulk busted a planet under his own power, minus wishing well magic, you stating him having the source of his power drained doesn't help your argument any does it?

The point of contention is not "Is Hulk a Planet Buster" it's "Did Hulk receive a power boost".

No, the point of contention is, Hulk never busted a planet prior to a book that is rife with wishing well magic and errant wishes from both sides. How did Bruce magically (excuse the pun) not get amped, but Bi Beast was, RSH was, Wendigo?

And the entire argument for "The Hulk got a power boost" boils down to two points

A) The wishing well can amp people, and the Hulk made a wish.

Yes, the same one you claim amped Betty, but not Bruce. Wow. Now that is magical.

B) The stuff Hulk does in this story is beyond what he's shown himself capable of doing previously.

Yes, by a big stretch.

A is like saying "The Dragonballs can grant someone eternal youth, and Goku made a wish on the Dragonballs. Therefore Goku has eternal youth"

It would certainly call into question the feat, yeah.

B is a faulty argument because it is an explicitly mentioned plot point that the Hulk is at his strongest known form and is giving his all.

It is an explicitly mentioned plot point that wishing well magic influenced what was going on in that story. You left that part out.

Him showing levels of power beyond what he's previously shown is to be expected given what the story says.

Again, you are downplaying the effect of wishing well magic which was a predominant theme in that book.

[Jcogginsa]

I'm not engaging with Cronus. I've already explained why Bruce didn't get amped, and he ignores it everytime so he canask the question again. He's already proven himself to be incapable of debating in good faith. I'll wait for the mod, or someone who can debate in good faith like Nik or MoR.

[Nik Hasta]

Well, for a start, this is not the place for the debate. Downtown isn't for this discussion.

I have stated my position on the feat multiple times but, in the interests of posterity, I shall do so again;

Between the wishing energy and the unique properties of physics in the Dark Dimension, my view is that it is not a clean feat. It is not wholly inadmissible and Worldbreaker Hulk has other feats that put him into the "generally messes with planetary scale stuff," bracket but this feat particularly has too many caveats to be as clean as other feats on this sort of scale.

I'll further reiterate that mod rulings on a specific feat basis is bad for board culture. The whole point of this board is for members to discuss and assess feats and present a case based on their interpretation of the evidence. Mod rulings supersede that purpose and remove debate.

I would strongly advise against any official ruling from any mod on a per feat basis. The mods are here to police our conduct and enforce the rules, they are not here to solve debates for us.

I would also strongly advise Jcogg and Cronus to take a break from this topic until they have both calmed down. It's a stressful time, no need to make it more stressful but arguing aggressively.

That's my thoughts on the matter.

[Jcogginsa]

Between the wishing energy and the unique properties of physics in the Dark Dimension, my view is that it is not a clean feat. .

I feel like I need to reiterate that I am NOT asking for a ruling on the Hulk being a planet buster.

I am asking for a ruling on whether the wishing energy powered the Hulk up.

My position, which I've already provided my reasoning for, is that the wishing energy did not power up the Hulk.

[Dark Soul # 7]

As a distraction, I've still avoided any MHA spoilers, but this video just popped up in my youtube recommendations. I think that the algorithm is telling me something.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Also, the best Mortal Kombat lady is back!