Downtown Khazan: Ice Cold Utopia

[Nik Hasta]

Also, saw sharp mention it briefly in the midst of this, but this isn't the first time someone has pointed out Whedon's behavior, right?

It isn't. He's had accusations of sexual misconduct, being weird around women he employs and generally being a bit of a bully for years now.

[kahnno6]

It isn't. He's had accusations of sexual misconduct, being weird around women he employs and generally being a bit of a bully for years now.

That's what I thought. It's sad though because I wasn't 100% sure since so many people are getting finally called out for this crap that I wasn't sure if it was him I remembered or one of many others. I can only hope that the trend we're seeing where people are being confronted for their crappy actions will result in a change of attitudes and behaviors going forward. Unfortunately though, I'm not super hopeful at the moment.

[FistofIron]

I feel like you're just not engaging with my point.

One more attempt and then I'll drop it because I have work to get back to.

Yes, people can think what they want.

But, when they say those thoughts out loud in a big public forum, and those thoughts are harmful/dangerous, and you say "I don't have problem with these views," - you are endorsing those views as being acceptable.

This is the key point here. You can take it or leave it. I only make this point because I don't think you do agree with those beliefs and would not want to be mistaken as doing so.

And as an aside, no lots of people aren't responsible for themselves. That's the whole dangerous thing about antivaxx rhetoric; preventative measures against disease only work if we all do them together. You personally can wear a mask and get a vaccine, but you will still be at risk if others are letting the disease run rampant, spread and mutate.

You seem to care a lot about individual responsibility, my point is that you should have a sense of individual responsibility for other people in your community or society.

I'm dropping this here but I would strongly recommend that you reflect on how your beliefs, and your application of them, come across to others.

It’s seems like we’re running around in circles so I’ll drop it too. Hopefully people think for themselves instead looking for an excuse for their own behavior. Take care.

[Beadle]

People are going to think what they want to. My point is that everyone is responsible for themselves.

I kind of echo what Nik’s saying.

And to add to it, sadly, a large proportion of people DON’T think what they want to. In trying to determine what they want to think they just try and find out what views celebrities espouse and then simply mimic those.

Which is why those people are referred to as influencers.

There’s a certain responsibility that comes with that influence.

I personally couldn’t give half a crap what views other people hold, except to the extent of not wanting to offend people by trampling over their beliefs, and I can’t stand the influencer culture.

But if you’re going to be an influencer, don’t be an effluencer.

Edit: And I’ll drop it as a one-and-done.

[FistofIron]

Started to get in the middle of this, but I'll just leave a simple thought:

Actions have consequences. If someone chooses (be it a person or a company) to not associated with you due to actions you did yourself, then that's just how it is and maybe you should take the time to look at yourself.

Also, saw sharp mention it briefly in the midst of this, but this isn't the first time someone has pointed out Whedon's behavior, right?

In my initial post I said that I knew it was coming. She was already on thin ice and just kept skating for whatever reason.

[Sharpandpointies]

An interesting article about how people are influenced.

Here.

And as an aside, no lots of people aren't responsible for themselves. That's the whole dangerous thing about antivaxx rhetoric; preventative measures against disease only work if we all do them together. You personally can wear a mask and get a vaccine, but you will still be at risk if others are letting the disease run rampant, spread and mutate.

There is a social responsibility as well. I run into similar issues with regards to Climate Change Deniers. One might say 'they can think what they like', but at the same time they're continuing to perpetuate a problem that's affecting everyone and everything. Soooo...

Also, saw sharp mention it briefly in the midst of this, but this isn't the first time someone has pointed out Whedon's behavior, right?

Yeah. So, huge surprise we're seeing it now. Not that the signs weren't there in some of his media to begin with, either.

I can only hope that the trend we're seeing where people are being confronted for their crappy actions will result in a change of attitudes and behaviors going forward. Unfortunately though, I'm not super hopeful at the moment.

I'm never super hopeful about humanity, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying. And yeah, stuff needs to be called out and faced, or there isn't even a chance for change.

[kahnno6]

I'm never super hopeful about humanity, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying. And yeah, stuff needs to be called out and faced, or there isn't even a chance for change.

I tend to oscillate between having very little hope and remembering that we're much better now than we were hundreds of years ago. I try to remind myself that humanity's growth and change takes time and even if I'm unlikely to see it in my lifetime, it's a slow, forward moving process. At least that's how I sleep at night.

[Beadle]

I tend to oscillate between having very little hope and remembering that we're much better now than we were hundreds of years ago. I try to remind myself that humanity's growth and change takes time and even if I'm unlikely to see it in my lifetime, it's a slow, forward moving process. At least that's how I sleep at night.

I’d agree with that, although I think I really HAVE seen significant positive change in my lifetime (and regression in other areas).

Generally I think society is getting better the more and more I detach myself from it.

I hope there’s no direct correlation there.

[Sharpandpointies]

I tend to oscillate between having very little hope and remembering that we're much better now than we were hundreds of years ago. I try to remind myself that humanity's growth and change takes time and even if I'm unlikely to see it in my lifetime, it's a slow, forward moving process. At least that's how I sleep at night.

I get that. And appreciate it.

My own issue is that while our social morals and ethics HAVE improved, as you say, they also improve slowly (again, as you say). And not equally. Some take little jumps. Others stagnate. As a whole, they kind of...creep upward, and I suspect there are people on this Earth who would argue that there haven't been any significant gains in some of them. Being a fifty year-old, heterosexual white dude insulates me from a lot (yes, even in Canada - hard thing to realize, but my country is kind of shitty despite its good PR), though I try to keep my eyes open. And I sure as hell see more than I did ten years ago.

However, our technological improvements tremendously outstrip those social morals and ethics; in terms of graphs, social improvements are (at best) a low-slope, linear graph at best (if not a series of plateaus with the occasional small jump), while technological improvements are a geometric graph and we're in the area where it's streaking upward.

Our capacity for destruction has vastly exceeded our social growth. We're at a tipping point where our very presence is causing untold harm in many ways, and really...we're doing little to stop it. Individuals, sure. Some small steps from corporations and governments, but grudging ones and terribly insufficient. Meanwhile, in any number of ways we continue to march into suffering and destruction.

I am very, very happy I decided not to have children. I feel very sorry for the children now, with society tearing everything apart before those kids are old enough to have the power to make change.

Is it too late?

Well, it's never too late to do SOMETHING.

But the odds of that SOMETHING having some meaningful effect - in many of the areas in which we're failing - diminishes drastically as time marches on.

And still, we dither, we prevaricate, we accept people obfuscating the issue, we push it off, we try to shove responsibility on others. One need only open the paper/check out any news site to see this happening, every day.

This might sound like I'm just talking about Climate Change at this point - which I have watched progress from the beginnings of the reporting about it, since the late 70's - but it's not just that. Our current pandemic is another example of something on the physical science side - it's not like we haven't had warnings about this for decades, but we've chosen not to do anything and boom, here we are. And we're likely looking down the barrel of the next one. And on the social sciences side? Look at many of the forms of activism today. One might say 'look how far they have come!' At the same time, one might say 'Look how far they have to go, and look how many steps backward they take' (as Beadle notes).

Humankind's story is littered with so many examples of people(s) doing nothing until it was too late, and then suffering the consequences. The difference now is that it's not just a community, a nation, or whathaveyou that will collapse. Due to our level of technology and our population and how entwined we all are - physically and socially - it's...well, everything. And some of that collapse will be irrevocable.

And sadly, the examples through history of humans pulling shit together and making a difference - a meaningful, lasting one for the better - are far fewer and further between. They stand out because they ARE the exceptions.

Could that happen now? Sure.

But the various windows are shrinking, and what good could potentially be accomplished is doing the same.

I have little faith in humanity. I have faith in individuals; sadly, individuals are not enough.

But at the same time, it's no reason not to TRY. Giving up means there is no possibility at all. So yeah, stay optimistic, but DO something. Believe that there can be meaningful improvements, but FIGHT for those improvements. Understand that we might do better if we changed how things work, then make those darned changes in our lives, because we all have responsibility.

Mileage may vary. I hope it does. And I would bloody well love to be proven wrong; if things turn around in the future and everything comes out roses, I'll happily eat all the crow in the world. Nothing would please me more than being incorrect. ^_^

And I'm not going to stop trying, myself, for the sake of other people's children.

[master of read]

all it takes for evil to win is for good men to do nothing.

had to re-evalutate a lot of friendships because of it.

[kahnno6]

I get that. And appreciate it.

My own issue is that while our social morals and ethics HAVE improved, as you say, they also improve slowly (again, as you say). And not equally. Some take little jumps. Others stagnate. As a whole, they kind of...creep upward, and I suspect there are people on this Earth who would argue that there haven't been any significant gains in some of them. Being a fifty year-old, heterosexual white dude insulates me from a lot (yes, even in Canada - hard thing to realize, but my country is kind of shitty despite its good PR), though I try to keep my eyes open. And I sure as hell see more than I did ten years ago.

However, our technological improvements tremendously outstrip those social morals and ethics; in terms of graphs, social improvements are (at best) a low-slope, linear graph at best (if not a series of plateaus with the occasional small jump), while technological improvements are a geometric graph and we're in the area where it's streaking upward.

Our capacity for destruction has vastly exceeded our social growth. We're at a tipping point where our very presence is causing untold harm in many ways, and really...we're doing little to stop it. Individuals, sure. Some small steps from corporations and governments, but grudging ones and terribly insufficient. Meanwhile, in any number of ways we continue to march into suffering and destruction.

I am very, very happy I decided not to have children. I feel very sorry for the children now, with society tearing everything apart before those kids are old enough to have the power to make change.

Is it too late?

Well, it's never too late to do SOMETHING.

But the odds of that SOMETHING having some meaningful effect - in many of the areas in which we're failing - diminishes drastically as time marches on.

And still, we dither, we prevaricate, we accept people obfuscating the issue, we push it off, we try to shove responsibility on others. One need only open the paper/check out any news site to see this happening, every day.

This might sound like I'm just talking about Climate Change at this point - which I have watched progress from the beginnings of the reporting about it, since the late 70's - but it's not just that. Our current pandemic is another example of something on the physical science side - it's not like we haven't had warnings about this for decades, but we've chosen not to do anything and boom, here we are. And we're likely looking down the barrel of the next one. And on the social sciences side? Look at many of the forms of activism today. One might say 'look how far they have come!' At the same time, one might say 'Look how far they have to go, and look how many steps backward they take' (as Beadle notes).

Humankind's story is littered with so many examples of people(s) doing nothing until it was too late, and then suffering the consequences. The difference now is that it's not just a community, a nation, or whathaveyou that will collapse. Due to our level of technology and our population and how entwined we all are - physically and socially - it's...well, everything. And some of that collapse will be irrevocable.

And sadly, the examples through history of humans pulling shit together and making a difference - a meaningful, lasting one for the better - are far fewer and further between. They stand out because they ARE the exceptions.

Could that happen now? Sure.

But the various windows are shrinking, and what good could potentially be accomplished is doing the same.

I have little faith in humanity. I have faith in individuals; sadly, individuals are not enough.

But at the same time, it's no reason not to TRY. Giving up means there is no possibility at all. So yeah, stay optimistic, but DO something. Believe that there can be meaningful improvements, but FIGHT for those improvements. Understand that we might do better if we changed how things work, then make those darned changes in our lives, because we all have responsibility.

Mileage may vary. I hope it does. And I would bloody well love to be proven wrong; if things turn around in the future and everything comes out roses, I'll happily eat all the crow in the world. Nothing would please me more than being incorrect. ^_^

And I'm not going to stop trying, myself, for the sake of other people's children.

Oh you are absolutely preaching to the choir. I've witnessed the same things and seen how our technological advancements have far outstripped our social ones.

One thing that I try to do is look at history and attempt to relate it to today. While I feel our current technological and industrial advancements have definitely made humanity's impact much much larger in scope, it's important to notice the patterns in history. There are always period of upheaval and struggle prior to growth. THAT is where I'm hoping we are on the curve (assuming the historical curve still applies).

There's lyric from a song that I like to tell myself: "But I swear to god, I'm gonna die, full of naive optimism; A teenager's heartbreaking conviction that things can be different"

I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. I'm glad you aren't either. If humanity doesn't wipe itself out, we'll get there.

[Sharpandpointies]

I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. I'm glad you aren't either. If humanity doesn't wipe itself out, we'll get there.

Naw, I'm not giving up, myself. Giving up would be betraying all of the kids out there who have to grow up in the mess we've made. It would be betraying all of the other beings of this world who will suffer/are suffering in the mess we've made.

Edit; Would be betraying myself, I guess, as well.

I just have very little hope, is all. Especially about that 'humanity wiping itself out', or at least tearing ourselves apart and the biosphere with us.

[kahnno6]

Naw, I'm not giving up, myself. Giving up would be betraying all of the kids out there who have to grow up in the mess we've made. It would be betraying all of the other beings of this world who will suffer/are suffering in the mess we've made.

Edit; Would be betraying myself, I guess, as well.

I just have very little hope, is all. Especially about that 'humanity wiping itself out', or at least tearing ourselves apart and the biosphere with us.

Oh I didn't think you were giving up, just to be clear. Just trying to bolster hope the best I can for everyone haha.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

No hope. Accept Cthulhu.

[Sharpandpointies]

Oh I didn't think you were giving up, just to be clear. Just trying to bolster hope the best I can for everyone haha.

Oh, yeah. Was just agreeing with you.

.....

Sorry, was was idiomatic way of responding (or perhaps idiotic?). When you said 'I'm glad you aren't, either,' my 'Naw, I'm not giving up, myself' was in agreement.