Downtown Khazan: Ice Cold Utopia

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Abrams original plan was to set up a bunch of mysteries, and then let other people figure out how to answer them.

Which is why he's worse than Rian. "I'm going to half-ass this and let others pick up the slack" is no way to handle a franchise.

No, he didn't. Everything TFA set up was followed up on in TLJ, it was simply followed up on in a manner that didn't match the common expectation. Instead of Snoke being the big bad, he gets ganked so that someone else can take the spot.

Both of which were better ideas than the common expectation.

Nor is this.

As Snoke was initially presented as someone who was careful, only revealing himself to his direct subordinates via hologram, but then all of a sudden decided to sit opulently in a large red room to pontificate. There are ways his death could've been handled that would've produced the same powershift, that wouldn't have involved making a parody of his character.. Now I'll admit, the more I think about this, this could- and probably should- be chalked up to JJ Abrams and his lack of consideration for the fact that he wouldn't be leading for the second film in the new trilogy. So I'd be perfectly fine saying this isn't Rian's fault. I can't shift that blame for Hux however, he had considerably more screen time and had more of an established character going into TLJ. To have him turned into the 'comic relief baddy' wasn't anything you could say was 'good subversion'.

Instead of Rey having a special backstory, she was the child of no one important.

This however? Was great and is proof Rian could have done a better job elsewhere.

A lot of the things TLJ gets criticized for (Such as Luke's deal at the start, or Finn not getting Jedi training) were things that are just Rian following off from where TFA left him.

Not things I had issues with. Finn was a great support character for Rey, initially. Had his own compelling enough backstory, (child soldier that shook off his programming and is doing his best to either atone or prevent this from happening in future), and worked well with Rey's scrappy yet ultimately altruistic, survivor characterization (until Abrams decided to crap all this dynamic in RoS). My issues with Luke's characterization is a bit less 'subversion was bad, and the way it was subverted was detrimental'. Luke falling is fine, probably even to be expected considering he's still human. How he fell? It could have been handled far, FAR better than what we were given, and all it would've taken was him simply dropping the Lightsaber at his feet (and not throwing it comically, and dismissively away)… which would've managed the same effect... and him not milking a Giraffe-Walrus thing and drinking the warm, blue milk like some kind of Wildman.

Two simple changes, and now the solid foundation you had to work with is absolutely unshakeable:

Luke, the formerly almost-painfully optimistic savior of the Galaxy, who had wagered his life and the galaxy on his trust in his friends and the goodness he hoped was still left in his father. Who had taken great lengths to honor Obi-Wan's legacy and rebuild the Jedi Order only to abandon it after a moment of weakness that saw it all burned to ash... and Rey, a woman who had despite lacking in all of the things Luke had going for him, stepped up without being asked. Who had gone through hell and highwater to find him to try and bring him back so that he could do what he'd done before and save the Galaxy... only to realize that the legend she'd grown up hearing about was just a broken shell unfit to give her the help and training she needed; and she'd have to be the one to do what he refused to?

Fantastic juxtaposition, and a way for Rey to grow and thrive in a way that both challenges the viewers' and gives weight to what happens next.

Now, we got notes of this, in a rather rushed and slapdash manner (and a weird chortle of a pep-talk from Ghost Yoda) sure... but the end result felt hollow, and wasn't in any way helped by the "cranky grandpa who likes the blue milk a bit too much". The above two changes, while slight, also would've made his redemption at the end of the movie feel deserved. The Luke we meet at the beginning in TLJ, didn't really deserve a heroic sacrifice. He needed to be put in a home for the elderly.

A third, and perhaps lesser thing: Improving Luke's characterization would've also helped Rey, as the main character in any story suffers when the supporting characters are crap.

As for the Lightspeed Ram scene: It was amazing, visually stunning scene, and only toxic fanboys care that it "breaks established lore" or whatever.

The issue is not with 'established lore' in the sense that I want established lore to be preserved at all costs. Star Wars lore is something that has been retconned quite a bit, to say its lore, or lore in established settings in general should never be changed is not something I believe, in general. The issue I have with THIS particular lore break however, is the problems it causes for the story as a direct result of the action. Why?

If you can take a ship and fly it at lightspeed into another ship, and utterly obliterate a fleet of ships surrounding it in the process; it breaks the lore in a way that causes direct plot issues because 1) it means this is something people are aware is possible 2) raises the question of why they haven't been doing it literally forever... as literally all you'd need to do, to win any space battle EVER, is take a ship and Kamikaze it into another ship.[/B] That not only cheapens the stakes of anything going forward, but is just objectively stupid.

To address my comments about Holdo being stupid (because I feel like this might be part of the problem and my fault for typing fast and loose...) it's in response to how she handled the events leading up to the Hyperspace Kamikaze. Keeping everyone in the dark to the point where one person (Poe) attempts to stage a munity due to thinking Holdo herself is a First Order Spy is stupid. After all, if the mutiny had been successful? They all die. The single thing Holdo is attempting to prevent. The demand, implicit or explicit in this scenario, to simply 'shut up and follow orders' is also not a good thing. If the goal was to maximize the saving of lives, while mitigating the losses; it could have been written in a way that managed that without making Holdo look stupid.

Writing a character, any character, like that is not a good thing. Especially if the character is on the side fighting against 'shut up and follow orders'.

Darth Vader being Luke's father broke Established Lore to a much greater extent, and that wasn't a problem.

As for this?

It wasn't established that Vader wasn't his father? All Old Ben said was that 'Vader killed Anakin', which in a metaphysical sense is true. Anakin's personality was subsumed by the Vader persona when he fell to the dark side. Ignoring the complicated discussion about what is the 'self' however, this wasn't a lore-break in the same way the Hyperspace Kamikaze is (considering it would also raise broader questions and cause problems with the rest of the sagas); it was more of a subversion. Almost blow-for-blow the same as the subversion of expectation with Rey's parentage. Nobody thought Vader was Luke's father. When it was revealed he was, people lost their minds. Everyone thought Rey was going to be the daughter of someone like Luke, Leia/Han Solo. When Rian revealed that she wasn't, people lost their minds.

Good subversion of expectation =/= Breaking the Lore in a way that causes more problems than it solves.

[Yun Lao]

The funny thing is that this Definition would exclude the character which the term was named after. As well as any character from a movie which is not part of a franchise

The main issues with the term are that 1.) As mention before, it was originally used primarily for fanfictions so trying to adapt it to original IPs isn't that simple and 2.) There are so many variations of the Sue trope nowadays, the tvtropes page for Mary Sue depicts 14 different kinds with even more tropes associated with each type.

Overall, in my opinion, Mary Sue is a term with merit, it's just been diluted with time and misuse. As for Rey, whom sparked this conversation, is she a Mary Sue? No. I believe she's just poorly written in certain aspects which make her sueish if not explained.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

And Mary Sue is an entirely worthless term that exists primarily due to sexism, as it's predominantly applied to female characters who do the same things that male characters get away with without comment

So this seems to be chalked up to attributing the motives generally associated with the term I used, to me. Which is not the case. Understandable, these things happens in conversations all the time and I should've outlined my meaning of the term more clearly. That's my bad, not yours. So I apologize for that.

So to clarify

When I use the term, it is specifically to refer to a character who is written in such a way that the stakes of the setting, or the rules and limitations that other characters are required to adhere to, do not apply to them. Consider it shorthand for "writing so bad that it causes a myriad of problems both for the supporting characters, and the story being told as a whole." and my critique doesn't change based on the character's gender, just the shorthand used (Gary Stu for a male, etc.). If that's offensive, I apologize, as that's not what I mean when I use the term.

In Rey's case however, the issue with her writing is less of an issue for TFA/TLJ, Her foundation to start was sold, and Rian improved it by subverting what we expected about her parentage. RoS Rey however is written both in a way that the stakes of the story mean nothing to the character, specifically, but also in such a way that it makes the story's supporting characters irrelevant , and the final 'high stakes' struggle utterly laughable. In that sense RoS Rey's character writing/and the overall story writing is a case of "writing so bad that it causes a myriad of problems both for the supporting characters (why are they even there if she can do their jobs but far better they add nothing to the story now except a way to pad the run time with their dialogue, sparse as it is), and the story being told as a whole (why was Palpatine even a threat if he could be causally dispatched by blocking his Force Lighting, and what real threat is there if ultimately, Death is nothing more than a slight inconvenience for characters in the wake of the revelation that Force Healing can reverse Death)".

So again, I apologize for using the term, the intent wasn't to be offensive. Hopefully the above explanation explains what I meant by it a bit better.

---

I would also politely ask that you avoid using the term "toxic fanboy" to be dismissive of others, when you don't intend to engage beyond attempting to shame someone for an opinion or critique you don't agree with. It adds nothing to the conversation, and only serves as a way to heighten tension and hostility, when you consider that the term is used, anymore, as a way to insult or denigrate others.

[Nik Hasta]

I see a lot of people talk about the blue milk thing. I don't really get why people were bothered by the blue milk thing.

Luke was a farm boy who grew up drinking blue milk. I have no issue with him getting it fresh from the sea cow.

[Nik Hasta]

Also, since the topic has come up and I'm a shameless shill for my housemate's ongoing video essay channel.



It's a pretty detailed analysis of what Disney did with Star Wars and where they went wrong.

Watch it, like, comment, subscribe, hit the bell thing and share with others and all of that stuff ^_^[/shill]

It does also feature me doing a semi-decent impression of Palpatine.

[Postmania]

Was Blue milk started with TLJ? It seems to be everywhere

[Nik Hasta]

Was Blue milk started with TLJ? It seems to be everywhere

Blue milk was in A New Hope. Luke and his family drink it with their dinner.

Though where you'd keep a sea cow on Tattoine raises further questions. Perhaps it's like... Tattoine was like the oat milk of Star Wars and... whatever island planet was in TLJ is like the whole milk cow situation.

mooo

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I see a lot of people talk about the blue milk thing. I don't really get why people were bothered by the blue milk thing.

Luke was a farm boy who grew up drinking blue milk. I have no issue with him getting it fresh from the sea cow.

For me it was largely his facial expression afterwards, almost as if the Blue Milk was a bottle of Colt 45. Considering the gravity this scene was supposed to have, it felt largely unnecessary and I felt it took away from the punch. A goofy blue milk boozer, does not a fallen paragon of optimism and perseverance make. Compared to some of my other issues, I don't feel it was like, the sole reason the scene failed for me. Just... something that could've been cut for a slight improvement. So I suppose it's ultimately a nitpick?

Blue milk was in A New Hope. Luke and his family drink it with their dinner.

Though where you'd keep a sea cow on Tattoine raises further questions. Perhaps it's like... Tattoine was like the oat milk of Star Wars and... whatever island planet was in TLJ is like the whole milk cow situation.

mooo

But see, the more you think about it, the more a somber scene becomes, "hehe blue milk go moooptttbbbb"

[Beadle]

I see a lot of people talk about the blue milk thing. I don't really get why people were bothered by the blue milk thing.

Luke was a farm boy who grew up drinking blue milk. I have no issue with him getting it fresh from the sea cow.

It’s a sad indictment of both my general apathy about debating this stuff and my nerdy pedantry that after all this discussion, all I could think of in response was “Ah, Tatooine. Home of the sea cow.... just not the sea for it to live in. That must be why Luke was moisture-farming.”

[Nik Hasta]

It’s a sad indictment of both my general apathy about debating this stuff and my nerdy pedantry that after all this discussion, all I could think of in response was “Ah, Tatooine. Home of the sea cow.... just not the sea for it to live in. That must be why Luke was moisture-farming.”

Basement full of sea cow.

[Nik Hasta]

For me it was largely his facial expression afterwards, almost as if the Blue Milk was a bottle of Colt 45. Considering the gravity this scene was supposed to have, it felt largely unnecessary and I felt it took away from the punch. A goofy blue milk boozer, does not a fallen paragon of optimism and perseverance make. Compared to some of my other issues, I don't feel it was like, the sole reason the scene failed for me. Just... something that could've been cut for a slight improvement. So I suppose it's ultimately a nitpick?



But see, the more you think about it, the more a somber scene becomes, "hehe blue milk go moooptttbbbb"

Yeah, I can't say I think any of that is unreasonable.

Wasn't my reaction to it obviously, I sort of took it in stride because it was a brief moment that didn't detract to from the experience of the overall thematic arc of the film.

TLJ is polarizing one. I think that's probably part of why I quite liked it.

[Nik Hasta]

Unrelated to anything else being discussed, I decided to start rereading One Piece from the beginning the other day.

I've gotten through the Alabasta Arc and am genuinely impressed at how quickly it finds its stride (Baratie Arc specifically) and then how consistently it has maintained a solid level of quality for like 950 odd chapters.

Sometimes the incredibly popular thing is just actually really good. It's real mental comfort food in these trying times.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Yeah, I can't say I think any of that is unreasonable.

Wasn't my reaction to it obviously, I sort of took it in stride because it was a brief moment that didn't detract to from the experience of the overall thematic arc of the film.

TLJ is polarizing one. I think that's probably part of why I quite liked it.

I will say I think that IS the nice thing about TLJ, its reception is such that there isn't a consensus on it. Allows for a lot of discussion... and ultimately I feel it's better than Rise of Skywalker, or TFA. JJ Abrams is a hack.

[The Dog]

Unrelated to anything else being discussed, I decided to start rereading One Piece from the beginning the other day.

I've gotten through the Alabasta Arc and am genuinely impressed at how quickly it finds its stride (Baratie Arc specifically) and then how consistently it has maintained a solid level of quality for like 950 odd chapters.

Sometimes the incredibly popular thing is just actually really good. It's real mental comfort food in these trying times.

Rereading ALL of One Piece in one go? Damn, I remember when I first got into One Piece (when the Enis Lobby arc was winding down), and it took me the better part of a week for me to read it all. And that was over a decade ago, when there were only 430 or so chapters to read.

Now it's 1007 chapters long.

[Beadle]

Basement full of sea cow.

Aunt Beru was so happy when the underground pool was fitted, but when she sent Luke off to market with a handful of magic beans and some guy called Jack swindled him into swapping them for 20 head of sea cow, there was only one place for them to live.

Aqua-Zumba would have to wait.