Downtown Khazan: Ice Cold Utopia

[Sharpandpointies]

5th edition is sounding more interesting the more I hear of it, I will say.

Might need to dredge myself up some PDF's and have a look.

[Noldere]

You’re right - I completely missed the rogue part of the question. o_0

Sorry!

*exits sheepishly*

They're still good questions, I'm was just thinking Fist was looking for a perspective on the rogue experience more so than general character advice.

Which admittedly, I didn't answer as well as I probably should have.

To that end...

One of the things that you (or any prospective Rogue player) should prepare to watch out for during play is DMs nerfing or attempting to nerf Sneak Attack and Reliable Talent (and skill checks in general).

Again, while Rogue's aren't by any means top-tier (much less "I hang out with you scrubs to feed my ego" tier) in damage or getting miscellaneous things done, their numbers (damage numbers and skill check numbers) will look absolutely terrifying to DMs or other players not adept at deep optimization, which will cause many DMs to nerf what is perceived to be a problem (rather than lean in to what was a deliberate design choice).

The other thing that any non-spellcaster needs to look out for is that spellcaster have options available to them that simply aren't available to non-spellcasters without some homebrewing. If you're the type that's not concerned with that, then you'll be fine. If you are concerned about that, you'll definitely want to have a talk with your DM (and maybe one with your fellow players) to have those concerns addressed before they cause problems at the table (or beyond it).

I will say this about Rogues - it’s worth asking if your DM is using the Optional Class Features recently released in Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything. If so, there’s an option called something like Steady Aim, where you can give yourself advantage for your Sneak Attack without being reliant on hiding, your teammates being within 5’ of the opponent or any other situational advantages.

In terms of sub-class, all the PHB options are solid. Noldere’s given you a good rundown of the Thief, but the Assassin’s very, very strong (especially if you choose a complementary race if you want to optimise - Bugbear makes a great option) and is really neat for multi-classing with something like Gloom Stalker Ranger or Shadow Monk. The Arcane Trickster is the only magic user whose Mage Hand can actually be invisible, and is useful for picking locks, sleight of hand etc.

But even outside of the PHB, there aren’t many poor sub-classes for Rogue. Maybe Scout is a bit less interesting...? If you want that, why not go Ranger? But the rest are excellent.

For what some people want out of a Ranger, the Scout does those things better than a Ranger does. I've had a couple of debates with a close friend over Scout v Ranger (friend arguing for the Scout, I for the Ranger). I kinda feel bad for the Assassin, not because it's a bad subclass, but because I'm so biased towards the Thief (the only class features I'd rate over Use Magic Device is Magic Item Savant- which is just an even better Use Magic Device- and Improved Divine Intervention- which is effectively guaranteed deus ex machina once every seven days).

5th edition is sounding more interesting the more I hear of it, I will say.

Might need to dredge myself up some PDF's and have a look.

Unfortunately, outside the Basic Rules and the Eberron books, Wizards of the Coast is still dropping the ball on making PDF's available. I mean, there's technically D&D Beyond, but that's not quite the same (for some, it's better than pdf and for others, it's worse than pdf).

[Sharpandpointies]

Unfortunately, outside the Basic Rules and the Eberron books, Wizards of the Coast is still dropping the ball on making PDF's available. I mean, there's technically D&D Beyond, but that's not quite the same (for some, it's better than pdf and for others, it's worse than pdf).

Unfortunate. Not that I was planning on actually forking out money for the rules. :P

The odds of my tabletop group wanting to play D&D are vanishingly small (even if we were playing tabletop at the moment, which we are most certainly not...maybe soon, who can say?), due to the game not being their style. Similarly, PbP D&D tends to be more of a dungeon-crawl or similar stuff, which I don't find interesting, and I'm a little low on PbP motivation right now anyway (I'm in something like...three games now? Only?). That's not a condemnation of the D&D PBP crowd, that's what D&D was designed for, and it never actually broke out of the 'this is an advanced combat system' mold in a way that really worked for me.

But in its various iterations it has been a fun, crunchy system to make up characters (which is my favorite kind), and I like reading that kind of thing. ^_^

My own personal favorite D&D was the Arcanis system which, despite being based on the rather heavily unbalanced 3.x, had TONS more options and actually went a looooong way to addressing the whole 'Linear Fighter/Quadratic Spellcaster' issue (I made up an Infernal Berserker for a non-Arcanis PbP game that left the spellcasters boggled). Plus great setting in many ways.

5e, I've been told, is one of the best iterations so far. From what everyone says, seems that way. Buuuuuut...not GMing or playing it = not shelling out an appalling amount of cash for a whack of books. ^_^

[Beadle]

Unfortunately, outside the Basic Rules and the Eberron books, Wizards of the Coast is still dropping the ball on making PDF's available. I mean, there's technically D&D Beyond, but that's not quite the same (for some, it's better than pdf and for others, it's worse than pdf).

True, but D&D Beyond is quite good for sharing content.

For example, I have the top tier subscription and own all the books on D&D Beyond except the Acquisitions Inc. book, the Rick & Morty book and the Stranger Things adventure, because I’m not into gimmicky spin-offs. Except Critical Role. And in a couple of days, when it’s released, I’ll automatically have Van Richten’s Guide to Ravenloft.

If you start a free D&D Beyond subscription as a player, and I run a campaign (actual or... ahem... ‘otherwise’) with you added as a player and enable content sharing, you have access to all of that at no extra cost.... while the campaign is running.

[Beadle]

Unfortunate. Not that I was planning on actually forking out money for the rules. :P

The odds of my tabletop group wanting to play D&D are vanishingly small (even if we were playing tabletop at the moment, which we are most certainly not...maybe soon, who can say?), due to the game not being their style. Similarly, PbP D&D tends to be more of a dungeon-crawl or similar stuff, which I don't find interesting, and I'm a little low on PbP motivation right now anyway (I'm in something like...three games now? Only?). That's not a condemnation of the D&D PBP crowd, that's what D&D was designed for, and it never actually broke out of the 'this is an advanced combat system' mold in a way that really worked for me.

But in its various iterations it has been a fun, crunchy system to make up characters (which is my favorite kind), and I like reading that kind of thing. ^_^

My own personal favorite D&D was the Arcanis system which, despite being based on the rather heavily unbalanced 3.x, had TONS more options and actually went a looooong way to addressing the whole 'Linear Fighter/Quadratic Spellcaster' issue (I made up an Infernal Berserker for a non-Arcanis PbP game that left the spellcasters boggled). Plus great setting in many ways.

5e, I've been told, is one of the best iterations so far. From what everyone says, seems that way. Buuuuuut...not GMing or playing it = not shelling out an appalling amount of cash for a whack of books. ^_^

See my previous post.

[Sharpandpointies]

True, but D&D Beyond is quite good for sharing content.

For example, I have the top tier subscription and own all the books on D&D Beyond except the Acquisitions Inc. book, the Rick & Morty book and the Stranger Things adventure, because I’m not into gimmicky spin-offs. Except Critical Role. And in a couple of days, when it’s released, I’ll automatically have Van Richten’s Guide to Ravenloft.

If you start a free D&D Beyond subscription as a player, and I run a campaign (actual or... ahem... ‘otherwise’) with you added as a player and enable content sharing, you have access to all of that at no extra cost.... while the campaign is running.

Interesting. Good marketing, that.

[Sharpandpointies]

See my previous post.

I love the 'or otherwise'.

Shocked, I am! Shocked indeed!

[Beadle]

I love the 'or otherwise'.

Shocked, I am! Shocked indeed!

It doesn’t want you to be worse off than if you were sitting round a table using actual books, and they acknowledge that, in those circumstances, your DM would just let you read their copy of the book.

And in the ‘otherwise’ category, well... I mean, it’s just like talking to a friend and borrowing their book for a read. At the end of the day you still don’t own the book.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

5th edition is a blast. Lots of customization. I DM for my brother and nephews whenever we can get all together.

[Beadle]

Agreed. It’s a lot of fun. And balanced. Sure, they don’t have Wish or Divine Intervention or whatever, but a Level 20 Barbarian or Fighter is just as able to contribute as a Level 20 Wizard or Cleric.

The only caveat I’ll give, Sharp, knowing you as I do, is that it’s not very crunchy. I mean it varies a lot, and Artificers at one end of the spectrum, are much more crunchy than Fighters, at the other end. But if you’re looking for something with the degree of Number Wang (only Nik will get this) that Anima has, 5e is not that. It’s intentionally accessible and non-gatekeepery, so the math(s) side is a lot less complex.

That might not be for you, knowing your RPG preferences.

[Lord Falcon]

I will always be grateful to 5th Edition for making the Monk class feel like it has a real place.

Also for the time my Wildmagic Sorceror friend blew bubbles out of her mouth for the entire fight.

[Beadle]

I will always be grateful to 5th Edition for making the Monk class feel like it has a real place.

Also for the time my Wildmagic Sorceror friend blew bubbles out of her mouth for the entire fight.

I’m all about Monks and Warlocks.

But every class has some really fun stuff.

Yes. Even the Fighter.

(And about your Chaos Sorcerer, I love chaos magic and some of the more random effects in the game. For example, one of the PCs in my game is a Fey Wanderer Ranger, and one of her traits is that whenever she takes a short or long rest, illusory butterflies flutter around her and she has no idea why.)

[Sharpandpointies]

It doesn’t want you to be worse off than if you were sitting round a table using actual books, and they acknowledge that, in those circumstances, your DM would just let you read their copy of the book.

And in the ‘otherwise’ category, well... I mean, it’s just like talking to a friend and borrowing their book for a read. At the end of the day you still don’t own the book.

Sensible explanation, and it makes perfect sense.

Agreed. It’s a lot of fun. And balanced. Sure, they don’t have Wish or Divine Intervention or whatever, but a Level 20 Barbarian or Fighter is just as able to contribute as a Level 20 Wizard or Cleric.

The only caveat I’ll give, Sharp, knowing you as I do, is that it’s not very crunchy. I mean it varies a lot, and Artificers at one end of the spectrum, are much more crunchy than Fighters, at the other end. But if you’re looking for something with the degree of Number Wang (only Nik will get this) that Anima has, 5e is not that. It’s intentionally accessible and non-gatekeepery, so the math(s) side is a lot less complex.

That might not be for you, knowing your RPG preferences.

As long as it's crunchy ENOUGH, and classes aren't as rigid with abilities as they used to be, I'd be fine with it.

I will always be grateful to 5th Edition for making the Monk class feel like it has a real place.

Also for the time my Wildmagic Sorceror friend blew bubbles out of her mouth for the entire fight.

I've always been disappointed with the Monk class in other editions. Glad to hear there has been an improvement.

Amusing about the wildmage, though. ^_^

[Sharpandpointies]

It's admittedly difficult to manage to balance the mage-types with non-mage types in games - either you end up with the 3.x issue, or the magic becomes pretty freaking weak. If this game has managed it, good going.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Sharp always plays a class with knives, cuz... Sharp and pointies.