Downtown Khazan: Ice Cold Utopia

[Sharpandpointies]

Reading back through old comics, and I have to say, the best fighting I've seen in them wrt showing women fighting has actually been in Batgirl.

Seems like artists just like to show women kicking people (show off their legs, I guess). Occasionally they'll throw in something different, but often it's kick, kick, kick, for panels and panels. Whereas Damon Scott and Pop Mhan often had Cass, Shiva, and other women using a whole lot of hand strikes - often very basic stuff, no fancy handshapes, just fists. Good stuff, especially Scott's stuff - always found it more raw and believable, for a comic. Mhan's stuff was more fancy, but he still didn't go for the kick-kick-kick garbage.

[Estrecca]

I see that the idiots (though that may be too charitable a term) currently trying to purge all comics content from Wikipedia have reached the level in which even a relatively notable character like Kalibak has had his article deleted. One can only wish that life will treat their own work with all the care and consideration they have displayed for the labour of others.

[Iron_Twister]

Reading back through old comics, and I have to say, the best fighting I've seen in them wrt showing women fighting has actually been in Batgirl.

Seems like artists just like to show women kicking people (show off their legs, I guess). Occasionally they'll throw in something different, but often it's kick, kick, kick, for panels and panels. Whereas Damon Scott and Pop Mhan often had Cass, Shiva, and other women using a whole lot of hand strikes - often very basic stuff, no fancy handshapes, just fists. Good stuff, especially Scott's stuff - always found it more raw and believable, for a comic. Mhan's stuff was more fancy, but he still didn't go for the kick-kick-kick garbage.

I'm actually planning a scene in my story where my character due to a circumstance in the competition she signed up on (think intense three legged race with a lot of rule bending), most of the competitors assume that since she can't kick, she's easy to eliminate.

...She proceeds to destroy them with her fists, while being annoyed that people forget karate is well, karate

[Sharpandpointies]

I see that the idiots (though that may be too charitable a term) currently trying to purge all comics content from Wikipedia have reached the level in which even a relatively notable character like Kalibak has had his article deleted. One can only wish that life will treat their own work with all the care and consideration they have displayed for the labour of others.

Seriously?

Who is doing this, and why?

[Sharpandpointies]

I'm actually planning a scene in my story where my character due to a circumstance in the competition she signed up on (think intense three legged race with a lot of rule bending), most of the competitors assume that since she can't kick, she's easy to eliminate.

...She proceeds to destroy them with her fists, while being annoyed that people forget karate is well, karate

Good stuff. ^_^

I'm so very TIRED of the whole 'Men Punch, Women Kick' thing. It's endemic, and when I do see a more 'normal' fight it really stands out for being that.

[Estrecca]

Seriously?

Who is doing this, and why?

Quite seriously.

Ultimately, rather than a complete deletion it was "merged" with the generic New Gods article. This is the extremely indepth description of Kalibak offered by the article.

Kalibak – The son of Darkseid and Suli who serves as the second-in-command of Apokolips.

As for the reasons, they vary, but generally it is something along the lines of "not sufficiently notable". People involved in Wikipedia have long held something of an inferiority complex, because of the presence of "un-encyclopedic" content such as bios of anime or comic characters. Increasingly stringent standards result in removal of what they term "fancruft", which is a term that seems to get broader every year.

There may or may not be an economic motivation related to the fact that the fandom wikis hosted in wikia also run ads, unlike wikipedia proper, but I have never seen satisfactory evidence of that theory.

[Sharpandpointies]

Well, that's kind of crappy.

.....

That's a hell of a list of deleted articles.

[Sharkerbob]

Quite seriously.

Ultimately, rather than a complete deletion it was "merged" with the generic New Gods article. This is the extremely indepth description of Kalibak offered by the article.

Kalibak – The son of Darkseid and Suli who serves as the second-in-command of Apokolips.

As for the reasons, they vary, but generally it is something along the lines of "not sufficiently notable". People involved in Wikipedia have long held something of an inferiority complex, because of the presence of "un-encyclopedic" content such as bios of anime or comic characters. Increasingly stringent standards result in removal of what they term "fancruft", which is a term that seems to get broader every year.

There may or may not be an economic motivation related to the fact that the fandom wikis hosted in wikia also run ads, unlike wikipedia proper, but I have never seen satisfactory evidence of that theory.

Unfortunate, but maybe the fact that there are now extensive wiki's for all of these properties is one reason they feel the "fancruft" on their own site is unnecessary? DC and Marvel already have MASSIVE wiki's all of their own with really thorough information on every character, location, etc. (At least last I checked.)

I'm not saying it's right, but maybe that's part of the motivation.

[Sharkerbob]

Reading back through old comics, and I have to say, the best fighting I've seen in them wrt showing women fighting has actually been in Batgirl.

Seems like artists just like to show women kicking people (show off their legs, I guess). Occasionally they'll throw in something different, but often it's kick, kick, kick, for panels and panels. Whereas Damon Scott and Pop Mhan often had Cass, Shiva, and other women using a whole lot of hand strikes - often very basic stuff, no fancy handshapes, just fists. Good stuff, especially Scott's stuff - always found it more raw and believable, for a comic. Mhan's stuff was more fancy, but he still didn't go for the kick-kick-kick garbage.

You know, it probably is to show off the legs, but part of me assumed it was something along the thought of "women have less upper body strength, so they need to kick to hit as hard as men punch" or something. But probably it's mostly just to show off the legs. In some cases maybe to show off athleticism if it's, like an acrobatic character. But of course, we are talking women with superhuman strength (even the "just human" superheroes, let's face it, they usually have some level of post-human physicality), so the whole "kick to compensate" logic shouldn't even apply.

[Estrecca]

Unfortunate, but maybe the fact that there are now extensive wiki's for all of these properties is one reason they feel the "fancruft" on their own site is unnecessary? DC and Marvel already have MASSIVE wiki's all of their own with really thorough information on every character, location, etc. (At least last I checked.)

That is sometimes the excuse, but in my experience the fandom specific wikias tend to be inferior in various ways (smaller pool of editors, less stringent standards for citations and a number of lesser things). Only a rare few, like Wookieepedia, really live up to the standard of what is deleted. The wikias for Marvel and DC tend to be decidedly inferior for minor characters, for example.

It is also, in any case, a piss poor excuse. You don't burn down a library, just because another has been opened across the street.

[Sharkerbob]

That is sometimes the excuse, but in my experience the fandom specific wikias tend to be inferior in various ways (smaller pool of editors, less stringent standards for citations and a number of lesser things). Only a rare few, like Wookieepedia, really live up to the standard of what is deleted.

Fair point.

It is also, in any case, a piss poor excuse. You don't burn down a library, just because another has been opened across the street.

Agreed.

The only other excuse I could think of is cutting off the fat to save server space, but I don't know how much wikipedia of all sites needs to actually worry about that. I imagine for a largely text-based website that sees decent crowd funding support, there can't be that much data they need to save on. Also, if they aren't doing this level of trimming to other subjects on the site, it'd be a little sus in that regard.

[Iron_Twister]

Good stuff. ^_^

I'm so very TIRED of the whole 'Men Punch, Women Kick' thing. It's endemic, and when I do see a more 'normal' fight it really stands out for being that.

Yeah, admittedly it took me a while during my early writing phase to have my character do more than kicks.

Gotta thank a lot expanding my watching/reading to find media where the women aren't pulling some waifu action.

[Estrecca]

The only other excuse I could think of is cutting off the fat to save server space, but I don't know how much wikipedia of all sites needs to actually worry about that. I imagine for a largely text-based website that sees decent crowd funding support, there can't be that much data they need to save on. Also, if they aren't doing this level of trimming to other subjects on the site, it'd be a little sus in that regard.

Nah, it is not a bandwidth saving measure. It is just about cutting out as much of the stuff they look down on as they can, which goes all the way back to the deletionist vs inclusionist "debate" of the late oughties.

Wikipedia is still a resource worth using in moderation, perhaps even worth donating for those who feel inclined to do so, but I definitely recommend against attempting to contribute. The bureaucracy is kafkaesque and ever-growing, so even articles that satisfy every requirement in the moment in which they are created are at risk of being summarily deleted if something changes.

It sucks, but there is probably nothing that can be done about it. It is just a bugbear that really offends me, so I needed to vent for a bit.

[Sharkerbob]

I honestly can't think if I've ever fallen into the trope of "women kick, men punch" at any point. I guess I don't really give it much thought.

I mostly just have everyone punch, swing weapons, or shoot lasers, unless their arms are pinned or they're drop-kicking someone. Then again, all my superhero stuff is in prose, if I was drawing it all, maybe I'd fall back on it out of visual flare? But then again-again, I don't really focus on martial arts.

*checks old art*

Yeah no, mostly punching or swinging weapons.



(Yes, that's supposed to be a female throwing the punch. It's a quickie doodle and I draw like twice a year, sue me.)

[Sharkerbob]

Nah, it is not a bandwidth saving measure. It is just about cutting out as much of the stuff they look down on as they can, which goes all the way back to the deletionist vs inclusionist "debate" of the late oughties.

Wikipedia is still a resource worth using in moderation, perhaps even worth donating for those who feel inclined to do so, but I definitely recommend against attempting to contribute. The bureaucracy is kafkaesque and ever-growing, so even articles that satisfy every requirement in the moment in which they are created are at risk of being summarily deleted if something changes.

I've contributed a couple times just due to having used it for so many years, but I suppose I shall not do so further if this is going to be their policy.

It sucks, but there is probably nothing that can be done about it. It is just a bugbear that really offends me, so I needed to vent for a bit.

Yeah, understandable.