Downtown Khazan: Ice Cold Utopia

[Beadle]

well I think we all recognize who THAT voice is when he's in handcuffs and what that means

I saw Rintrah in that trailer.

*does a silly little happy dance*

[Sub-Zero MKA]

well I think we all recognize who THAT voice is when he's in handcuffs and what that means

Yes sir, we do.

*giddy with excitement*

[Beadle]

Yes sir, we do.

*giddy with excitement*

*pssst*
I actually didn’t recognise the voice. I mean I’m still half-asleep, but…

[Hiromi]

a really bald actor/character

[Jcogginsa]

a really bald actor/character

He likes his teat Earl Grey, hot

[Beadle]

Ah.

Gotcha.

[bruceleegreyhulk]

[Nik Hasta]

I'm just going to temper expectations and suggest that said actor might not be playing the same character.

Remember WandaVision and how "Pietro" was just some guy? Could be that sort of thing.

In other observations, the glowing flying person fighting Wanda... gold with like blue hands and possibly a blue insignia on chest? Potentially... Johnny Storm? I'm reaching here but that's what my brain thought.

Broadly, it looks kinda busy? I'm still on the fence about seeing it myself. I do like Strange screaming as his face melts into cubes, that's good, and it seems to be more in the vein of a dimension-hopping voyage into the unknown which I also like. I guess I'll let it ruminate and see if I get some free tickets or something.

[Sharpandpointies]

You mean "So far off the mark it's not even the same series?"

Well, that. Yes.

It's like the people writing it did a cursory skim of the lore or had someone explain it to them for five minutes, then started in.

Broadly, it looks kinda busy? I'm still on the fence about seeing it myself. I do like Strange screaming as his face melts into cubes, that's good, and it seems to be more in the vein of a dimension-hopping voyage into the unknown which I also like. I guess I'll let it ruminate and see if I get some free tickets or something.

I'd need to watch the latest Spider-man movie first, and also the What If? with Strange, at the least. I'm having problems motivating myself, even given who shows up in the latest Spider-man (we would also need to get Disney).

I'm interested in Strange 2, but not sure I want to put in the effort of seeing the background stuff. Also, I'm miffed about Shuma Gorath.

[Nik Hasta]

Well, that. Yes.

It's like the people writing it did a cursory skim of the lore or had someone explain it to them for five minutes, then started in.

Politely and from the perspective of someone who doesn't know much of anything about LotR lore, what is it that you find objectionable? The teaser trailer is mostly people standing and looking at things and shooting bows with like two lines of voice over. Where do you get the feeling that the characters are wildly changed?

I'd need to watch the latest Spider-man movie first, and also the What If? with Strange, at the least. I'm having problems motivating myself, even given who shows up in the latest Spider-man (we would also need to get Disney).

I'm interested in Strange 2, but not sure I want to put in the effort of seeing the background stuff. Also, I'm miffed about Shuma Gorath.

I haven't watched No Way Home or What If? and I don't intend to. I figure I know enough through cultural osmosis to get by.

[Sharpandpointies]

Politely and from the perspective of someone who doesn't know much of anything about LotR lore, what is it that you find objectionable? The teaser trailer is mostly people standing and looking at things and shooting bows with like two lines of voice over. Where do you get the feeling that the characters are wildly changed?

You are correct in that there isn't a lot in the trailer to go on, but there's more out there. Based on what I saw, what I've read in interviews, and other stuff that's being discussed, it's not just about the characters. I feel it's going to be a lot of stuff.

I'll give a few examples.

Elrond is described as a 'canny young politician'. He's going to do stuff like try to deal with the problems between Khazad-dum and the Elves. The thing about this was that Elrond really wasn't a political type (nor was he the jerk we met in Jackson's movies, but that's a different thing), he was first a herald to Gil-Galad and then a healer. 'Canny' doesn't seem like a good description of Tolkien's character. Also, there really was NEVER an issue between the Dwarves of Khazad-dum and the Elves, so they're basically pulling that into things from nowhere in order to set up a storyline.

...also his costume in the photo I've seen of the actor in-character is kind of...NOT Noldor Elf. More like 'country bumpkin'. But that's just one photo, and maybe it's not the full costume, so whatever. ^_^

I have zero issues with people making stuff up to set up a storyline, but basically going against the setting as it was to create a storyline when there are a gazillion other storylines one could do sets a poor precedent on how they plan to approach other stuff. They could have gone with 'Young Elrond as a herald in Gil-Galad's court, and sending him as a diplomat on friendly missions to the dwarves, with problems occurring'. Instead, as I understand they've gone with the sad, tired cliché of 'Elves and Dwarves always hate each other' to set up this storyline, which was glaringly not true in Tolkien's world. Yes, by the time of the Lord of the Rings story, the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain weren't huge fans of Elves, and SOME of the Elves of Lóthlorien didn't like Dwarves (mostly because the Dwarves dug too deeply and woke up the damned Balrog next door - which for the Elves was 'recent', in the Third Age, and the Dwarves only about three generations before) and that kind of thing, but there were REASONS, and there were many times through the various ages where the Eldar and the Khazad got along just fine. Even traded secrets, and for the Dwarves, that was a Big Deal™.

This included Khazad-dûm and Lóthlorien in the Second Age.

Next, Galadriel. Galadriel is being shown as 'the young, adventuresome, spirited elf-warrior-woman who gets into trouble'. During the Second Age, she was already thousands of years old and EASILY one of the oldest elves in Middle Earth, had established herself as the ruler of Lóthlorien, and was a wise and powerful leader of the Eldar in general. I would have been more happy had they put a new character into place for this position, because hey, there IS a lot of room for new characters in this one (Tolkien wasn't heavy on exact details in this time, it was historical, and they're going to need new characters frankly). Also, as a small but important detail with regards to the amount of actual research they've put in, someone has taken a Fëanorean star and blazoned it on her armor (on the shoulders, as I recall). Galadriel wouldn't be caught dead with a Fëanorean star anywhere near her; she was not a fan (like, at all).

Yes, it's a small detail but if they're going to use symbols and such, it's kind of important to get it right.

Speaking of which, photos of dwarf women show them as not having beards. Soooo...more details they've decided to ignore/gloss-over/whatever.

Might it still be good? Sure. I mean, a lot of people liked the movies, despite their flagrant and unnecessary departure from Tolkien's plot, characters, and themes. I know it's an open question if the movies were ARTISTICALLY good, but in this case, maybe the show will be a fantastic show, etc.

But from the perspective of someone who enjoys the actual lore, the actual themes, the actual characters, etc, while I doubt it'll be as annoying as Jackson's movies were to me (because the Second Age IS kind of historical, and there IS room for some interpretation), there will be a lot of stuff that massively contradicts the lore. And that kind of thing is a little like a poke in the eye with a sharp stick while watching. For me. It will be a constant irritation, and for that reason I'm very 'Blaaargh' about watching the show.

People should be happy - means I won't be storming in here to rant. *and there was much rejoicing*

^_^

I haven't watched No Way Home or What If? and I don't intend to. I figure I know enough through cultural osmosis to get by.

Might do that, but my OCD is kind of fighting with me on the issue. ^_^

[Nik Hasta]

I was looking on Twitter while you was typing to see if there were some broad disagreements I could pick up and actually saw this:

Also, as a small but important detail with regards to the amount of actual research they've put in, someone has taken a Fëanorean star and blazoned it on her armor (on the shoulders, as I recall). Galadriel wouldn't be caught dead with a Fëanorean star anywhere near her; she was not a fan (like, at all).

It's on the chest of a piece of armour but I've seen other people saying it's some other star rather than the Feanorean one? IDK. Ea Elandiriel(?) spelling permitting?!

You are correct in that there isn't a lot in the trailer to go on, but there's more out there. Based on what I saw, what I've read in interviews, and other stuff that's being discussed, it's not just about the characters. I feel it's going to be a lot of stuff.

I'll give a few examples.

Elrond is described as a 'canny young politician'. He's going to do stuff like try to deal with the problems between Khazad-dum and the Elves. The thing about this was that Elrond really wasn't a political type (nor was he the jerk we met in Jackson's movies, but that's a different thing), he was first a herald to Gil-Galad and then a healer. 'Canny' doesn't seem like a good description of Tolkien's character. Also, there really was NEVER an issue between the Dwarves of Khazad-dum and the Elves, so they're basically pulling that into things from nowhere in order to set up a storyline.

...also his costume in the photo I've seen of the actor in-character is kind of...NOT Noldor Elf. More like 'country bumpkin'. But that's just one photo, and maybe it's not the full costume, so whatever. ^_^

I have zero issues with people making stuff up to set up a storyline, but basically going against the setting as it was to create a storyline when there are a gazillion other storylines one could do sets a poor precedent on how they plan to approach other stuff. They could have gone with 'Young Elrond as a herald in Gil-Galad's court, and sending him as a diplomat on friendly missions to the dwarves, with problems occurring'. Instead, as I understand they've gone with the sad, tired cliché of 'Elves and Dwarves always hate each other' to set up this storyline, which was glaringly not true in Tolkien's world. Yes, by the time of the Lord of the Rings story, the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain weren't huge fans of Elves, and SOME of the Elves of Lóthlorien didn't like Dwarves (mostly because the Dwarves dug too deeply and woke up the damned Balrog next door - which for the Elves was 'recent', in the Third Age, and the Dwarves only about three generations before) and that kind of thing, but there were REASONS, and there were many times through the various ages where the Eldar and the Khazad got along just fine. Even traded secrets, and for the Dwarves, that was a Big Deal™.

This included Khazad-dûm and Lóthlorien in the Second Age.

Next, Galadriel. Galadriel is being shown as 'the young, adventuresome, spirited elf-warrior-woman who gets into trouble'. During the Second Age, she was already thousands of years old and EASILY one of the oldest elves in Middle Earth, had established herself as the ruler of Lóthlorien, and was a wise and powerful leader of the Eldar in general. I would have been more happy had they put a new character into place for this position, because hey, there IS a lot of room for new characters in this one (Tolkien wasn't heavy on exact details in this time, it was historical, and they're going to need new characters frankly). Also, as a small but important detail with regards to the amount of actual research they've put in, someone has taken a Fëanorean star and blazoned it on her armor (on the shoulders, as I recall). Galadriel wouldn't be caught dead with a Fëanorean star anywhere near her; she was not a fan (like, at all).

Yes, it's a small detail but if they're going to use symbols and such, it's kind of important to get it right.

Speaking of which, photos of dwarf women show them as not having beards. Soooo...more details they've decided to ignore/gloss-over/whatever.

Might it still be good? Sure. I mean, a lot of people liked the movies, despite their flagrant and unnecessary departure from Tolkien's plot, characters, and themes. I know it's an open question if the movies were ARTISTICALLY good, but in this case, maybe the show will be a fantastic show, etc.

But from the perspective of someone who enjoys the actual lore, the actual themes, the actual characters, etc, while I doubt it'll be as annoying as Jackson's movies were to me (because the Second Age IS kind of historical, and there IS room for some interpretation), there will be a lot of stuff that massively contradicts the lore. And that kind of thing is a little like a poke in the eye with a sharp stick while watching. For me. It will be a constant irritation, and for that reason I'm very 'Blaaargh' about watching the show.

People should be happy - means I won't be storming in here to rant. *and there was much rejoicing*

^_^

I see, so it's like... it's been hit with the TV!Game of Thrones stick to make it palatable to the mainstream "hot-fantasy-that-fucks," crowd which means "compelling yet kind of simplistic political intrigue", simplified racially motivated animosity between locales because that always hit good and provides easy drama, youthful characters who are more accessible than someone with literally thousands of years of backstory and an unwillingness to engage with more potentially queer aspects of the original piece [sic:bearded women]

I getcha. Though on that last one, I would make a bet that there will be some dwarven bearded women as like extras in the background somewhere. But having ambiguously gendered leading characters might feel like to much of "a stance" in today's climate.

Are you going to watch it? I'm vaguely intrigued by the concept of "what does spending literally a billion dollars get you in a TV show," but I honestly don't think I have the stomach for a whole show of Tolkien level dense stuff about high concept fantasy stuff. Feels like it'll be a "first episode and then fall off it" kind of affair for me.

No disrespect but I've never got on well with LotR and its history, just not my sort of thing.

[Sharpandpointies]

I was looking on Twitter while you was typing to see if there were some broad disagreements I could pick up and actually saw this:

It's on the chest of a piece of armour but I've seen other people saying it's some other star rather than the Feanorean one? IDK. Ea Elandiriel(?) spelling permitting?!

Eärendil's star?

*checks*

Okay, I found someone making a valid point that it's more likely Finarfin's star, which would actually fit (as Galadriel is actually of the House of Finarfin)...or, potentially, Eärendil's, but Finarfin's would make more sense. Mea culpa on that - was probably getting grumpy when I saw it and jumped to the wrong conclusion.

I see, so it's like... it's been hit with the TV!Game of Thrones stick to make it palatable to the mainstram "hot-fantasy-that-fucks," which means "compelling yet kind of simplistic political intrigue", simplified racially motivated animosity between locales because that always hit good and provide drama, youthful characters who are more accessible than someone with literally thousands of years of backstory and unwilling to engage with more potentially queer aspects of the piece [sic:bearded women]

Absolutely.

I mean, they could have done some of that with original characters (I know there will be a lot of those already!). But they wanted big names like Elrond and Galadriel...while actually (from what I've seen) ignoring a lot of their actual story. And they're looking at five seasons - unless they're stretching this thing out for the X thousand years of the Second Age (always possible, I guess? But if they do that, it's gonna be new characters other than the Elves every season), they could have made things more complex...and more true to the actual themes and setting.

I getcha. Though on that last one, I would make a bet that there will be some dwarven bearded women as like extras in the background somewhere. But having ambiguously gendered leading characters might feel like to much of "a stance" in today's climate.

I mean, even if that's happening there's a thing with Dwarves that beards are kind of important. Even if we get away from Tolkien's idea that women Dwarves basically stay hidden, and go about dressed as men to avoid being noted as female, beards for Dwarves are a big thing. Having one of their women shave the beard off is...well, it would be the same as a male Dwarf shaving off the beard. Not a lot of respect for that Dwarf. But the one photo I've seen looks like they're going with 'Dwarf noblewoman'.

Are you going to watch it? I'm vaguely intrigued by the concept of "what does spending literally a billion dollars get you in a TV show," but I honestly don't think I have the stomach for a whole show of Tolkien level dense stuff about high concept fantasy stuff. Feels like it'll be a "first episode and then fall off it" kind of affair for me.

No disrespect but I've never got on well with LotR and its history, just not my sort of thing.

No worries, no disrespect taken. Everyone has different tastes.

I've always preferred the Silmarillion to LotR because it's more tragic, the characters are stupidly flawed, it's all about people screwing up on a horrifically grand scale (nothing goes well in Sil, other than ->) and one story about love conquering all.

And Lord of the Rings, itself...I had a bit of a change of perspective toward it in the last twenty years where I stopped trying to view it as high fantasy, and started taking the perspective of 'this is actually post-apocalyptic fantasy' and reading it with that idea in mind. Also looking at Tolkien's themes - not of heroic superhuman deeds and magic, but of grit, little people rising up, and evil consuming itself. Generic high fantasy bores me, but that kind of thing...viewed properly, LotR slots nicely into that (which is what Tolkien seemed to intend). It's just more dry than I normally enjoy.

I might try it? Just to see what they did? But expectations are low.

[Sharpandpointies]

...just spent an inordinate amount of time looking for clear photos of the star on Galadriel's armor and comparing it to Eärendil's star and Finarfin's star, as well as the Fëanorean one.

Gotta say, and based on the majority of stuff I've found...

1. Finarfin's star is ridiculously stylized and doesn't look like this at all;
2. Eärendil's star has SIX points, while this one has eight.
3. Fëanorean star matches up most closely with it, having eight points (which was one reason I jumped to that conclusion).

Ehhhhh...maybe they were going for Generic Eldar Star, but outlook not so good.

[Sharpandpointies]

I saw Rintrah in that trailer.

*does a silly little happy dance*

Figured you'd be hyped about that. ^_^