Downtown Khazan: Ice Cold Utopia

[Sharpandpointies]

Yeah...Apparently these are straight up out on DVD/Blu Ray by now.

Also, Todoroki continues to be the strongest guy in Post-Murayama Oya.



Guy taking out numbers in the span of a short phone call like he's goddamn Batman.

Hah. I like that.

Yeah, guy was the only person who could actually put up a fight against Murayama in Oda. And make him work. Would be weird if new, younger guy just shows up and is better, and it's kind of cool that the lead character isn't the best in his group.

[Iron_Twister]

Hah. I like that.

Yeah, guy was the only person who could actually put up a fight against Murayama in Oda. And make him work. Would be weird if new, younger guy just shows up and is better, and it's kind of cool that the lead character isn't the best in his group.

Yeah. I did like how Tsukasa explains it. Everyone acknowledges Todoroki is a very strong fighter...They just don't tolerate his attitude though he is turning around, especially in this film. Apparently the Bara Biz school joined specifically to take him out due to an incident in the past (and I think paying attention to the series of Todoroki's backstory strongly implied Bara Biz was his original school before going to Oya...So a nice connection to the series too).

[Nik Hasta]

I get this, thank you for the clarification.

My point, specifically, to clarify, is that in the last say five, seven years we've seen (supposedly) some changes in society even further than before. Changes that have, in some ways, spilled into the video game industry as well. I don't expect big changes between the 90's and 2010, as an example, because nothing really did change in that time. But since then, there have been changes, and there continue to be changes. At least in outlook, and how people are talking about this stuff.

That the newest version of the character doesn't reflect those changes...well, that's one reason to say 'supposedly' there have been changes. Like, why not? And at what point does one say 'okay, this should be tackled or discussed'? Why not now?

'I thought we were past this' referring to this thing in a general sense (and no, I know we're not 'there' yet, wherever 'there' is, but 'I thought we were past this' is kind of slang for 'I thought we were making some headway on this, why is this coming up again?').

But that was my original point, I think Nina's design in Tekken 8 is a step in a good direction and does reflect the cultural shifts you make reference to from the last 7 odd years.

It's a lot more practical outfit design and lot less focused on directly sexualising her than previous games have been. I specifically brought up the example of MK to illustrate how the more extreme elements of female character design in fighting games are shifting in a much more positive direction generally.

You posited; "I thought we were making headway," and I'm like; "Yes, we are and this represents some of the headway in the larger context of fighting game character design,"

I appreciate that my interpretation is derived from my greater familiarity with both Tekken and fighting game character design conventions as a whole, so I see it much more of a part of a larger continuum of designs, but surely you can see how you pointing at what is, from my perspective, a quite inoffensive and much improved character design and saying "this is symptomatic of the problems of the male gaze in video games," comes across as like... wood for the trees on my end?

And to be clear, I am not dismissing your concerns or your reaction to Nina's design, though we clearly have different tolerances or perspectives on what is appropriate for female character design. I won't pretend to fully understand your perspective because, as stated, I think the design is an improvement and pretty inoffensive as far as depictions of women in fighting games go (as stated, I think Nina's new design is pretty good) but I'm trying very hard to come across like I'm not shutting you down here.

Which is fine for a larger discussion, but doesn't obviate the fact that someone can point to a specific game and game company and say 'look, why design your characters - specifically yours - like this?'.

I never said that it did.

You asked, "why is it like this?" and I answered; "this is why the designs are like this and this is actually much improved from where we were," and you have responded with "well why isn't it more improved?" to which I can't say much to that without talking about the larger FG context.

[Sharpandpointies]

Yeah. I did like how Tsukasa explains it. Everyone acknowledges Todoroki is a very strong fighter...They just don't tolerate his attitude though he is turning around, especially in this film. Apparently the Bara Biz school joined specifically to take him out due to an incident in the past (and I think paying attention to the series of Todoroki's backstory strongly implied Bara Biz was his original school before going to Oya...So a nice connection to the series too).

Interesting about the background...yeah, Todoroki was definitely the stronger fighter in The Worst for Oya; it's just that he was a lousy leader, so nobody would follow him. Which is why Fujio ended up top dog for the full-timers; he actually has charisma, cares for his buddies, and people will follow him.

[Sharpandpointies]

But that was my original point, I think Nina's design in Tekken 8 is a step in a good direction and does reflect the cultural shifts you make reference to from the last 7 odd years.

Then that's fair. It doesn't seem to reflect in your first post on the matter from my perspective based on what was written and not actually knowing what was on your mind at time of writing, so apparently I got the wrong idea.

You posited; "I thought we were making headway," and I'm like; "Yes, we are and this represents some of the headway in the larger context of fighting game character design,"

Fair enough, if that was your meaning. What I got out of it was this:

I mean, while I understand the sentiment; it's Nina. She and her sister Anna have been wearing evening dresses and high heels in combat since the 90s. Saying "I thought we were beyond this," more shows you don't follow Tekken very closely because their designs have either been "slinky secret agent catsuit," or "evening dresses and high heels," for a long time.

.....

Overall though, for my money, Tekken's designs have classically not been that male gaze-y in the grand scheme of things. Dead Or Alive, older Mortal Kombat titles, and even some aspects of Street Fighter have all been more egregious.

With one line in the middle.

If anything Nina's design is a considerably more restrained and practical when compared to her outfit in the last game

All of which led to what I said on the subject.

If I misunderstood you, again, fair enough.

[Nik Hasta]

Then that's fair. It doesn't seem to reflect in your first post on the matter from my perspective based on what was written and not actually knowing what was on your mind at time of writing, so apparently I got the wrong idea.

I certainly could have been clearer. Apologies if you felt got at by my line on this topic, not what I was going for on it.

[Sharpandpointies]

I certainly could have been clearer. Apologies if you felt got at by my line on this topic, not what I was going for on it.

All fine, here. . Clarity is good.

[Postmania]

I like Nina's design as a sort of hand-wavey thing if it follows from a sort of precedent what happened in the previous game where the impractical outfit there is justified from a story reason (i.e, she wore it for a hit, and then just never got to taking it off) but I do recognize that it's grading on a curve where Nina is concerned though I'm not really familiar with her outside of the past game.

Gotta say though, I heard Nina's moniker is supposed to be "The Silent Assassin" and it seems less true with each game when she's running around in these outfits and firing unsilenced pistols and planting landmines on people

Do like the gun stuff though, but that's unsurprising considering I've been looking at Jane in Ruins for a bit now

Yeah, lots of people on Tumblr praying that this isn't real or is not what it seems. I'm not heavily invested in DA any more, due to...well, YEARS away from it and Inquisition being a relentless slog (hopefully Bioware has realized the 'open world with endless fetch-quests iz better than a detailed storyline!' thing died a gruesome death in the late 20-teens).

We'll see how it goes.

It looks...bad. Very much reworked to fit the looter shooter model which I grow less fond of over time. Will still try it out even though I've been away from Dragon Age longer than you (never even played 2 or 3). I just want to believe that Bioware has something left in it but they are seemingly determined to prove me wrong. Can only hope with the new Mass Effect.

[Sharpandpointies]

It looks...bad. Very much reworked to fit the looter shooter model which I grow less fond of over time. Will still try it out even though I've been away from Dragon Age longer than you (never even played 2 or 3). I just want to believe that Bioware has something left in it but they are seemingly determined to prove me wrong. Can only hope with the new Mass Effect.

Bioware kind of went from super-gritty, somewhat realistic style of combat in the first game to people leaping all over the map, absurd skills that made explosions in the ground, that sort of thing in DA: II, to outright insanity in Inquisition with people doing stuff like 'punch ground and make a flaming crack extend outward from where you hit', etc. If you get my drift. It did move a bit towards a looter (but then, DAO was kind of about 'get better gear' as well) more, resources to build stuff, but it didn't go 'that is the point of the game!'; no, story was king. And at least in DA II it had a hell of a storyline (and characters), genuinely different from the other games in mood and scope. And in Inquisition the story wasn't bad, romances were even more detailed and lengthily (or at least equal to DA 2), characters were complex, etc. Too many fetch quests, though, and too much of an open world feeling where a lot of the 'regions' felt like reskinned versions of other regions. Reskinned WELL, mind, and normally with some details different, so it only really started to feel that way later in the game.

A feeling which Mass Effect: Andromeda took, multiplied by like eight, and barely had any different details between worlds outside of 'how they look'.

I guess we see what happens with ME4, as you say.

[Yeoman]

Hey, y’all. Feeling nostalgic and wanted to pop in and look around. Still see some of the old familiar faces. Hope life’s treating everyone well. Cheers.

[Postmania]

Sup Yeo. I remember your name, though not a lot else at the moment since it's been a bit for me too lol.

Hope things are going good for you too

[Yeoman]

Sup Yeo. I remember your name, though not a lot else at the moment since it's been a bit for me too lol.

Hope things are going good for you too

Yeah, I was most active in … sweet merciful Primus… the early 2000s? Damn I’m old… but Rumbles was my first home on the internet, and I tend to drop in from time to time.

[Sharkerbob]

Hey, y’all. Feeling nostalgic and wanted to pop in and look around. Still see some of the old familiar faces. Hope life’s treating everyone well. Cheers.

Yo.
________

[Sharpandpointies]

Hey, Yeoman. Occasionally used to see you on Tumblr with some of the old crowd.

[Iron_Twister]

Indeedy. Good to see again.

...meanwhile, I just pop in from time to time so hoping to change that.