Downtown Khazan: Ice Cold Utopia

[Len Ikari145]

I'm looking forward to Mikoto vs Killua. I wonder if they're going to include her AAA as part of her equipment.

[Jcogginsa]

Yeah, that's just...terrible. What is with companies now? "We just don't give a ****." Nice slogan.



Yeah. Fridging is something that needs to stop. I'm stunned it's still happening, and this is just gross.



People keep saying 'The Spider-man she was connected to wasn't the one in whose book she died'. Ugh.

Not...that it would have made things any better, but this just feels like 'we need to fridge a female character to give Peter motivation...hmm, Kamala is disposable, let's use her.' At which point you wonder WHY it had to be Kamala on top of the fridging, and hmmm, I don't know, maybe some racism happening in there as well?

The whole thing just reeks.

My guess is that Editorial needed a place to kill of Kamala so that she can be revived with MCU powers when the Marvels drops later this year. So they had it happen in Spidey's book since there was an opening.

[Dark Soul # 7]

I'm looking forward to Mikoto vs Killua. I wonder if they're going to include her AAA as part of her equipment.

Yeah, that was a nice surprise reveal. Looking forward to their calcs for Misaka.

[Dark Soul # 7]

and while punisher got that run, can we talk about how utterly horrid ASM has been? like.....why do they hate peter at marvel?

They don't hate Peter... I think... though they make it really hard to argue that they don't. Especially when we have execellent representations of the character in other media while current comic Peter is just such a fucking loser.

But my initial point is that what they're frustrated by is the fact that fans really like Peter and Mary Jane being together. Even Stan Lee was perplexed by it. He intended for Gwen Stacy to the main heroine and love interest of the book while MJ was just the flirty other girl that could never have a serious relationship with our stalwart main hero. But fans gravitated towards MJ because she was fun, she had a more dynamic relationship with Peter with contrasts that made them more interesting together, and MJ like Peter and Spidey while Gwen hade major issues with Spider-man. Thus began the Spider-man editorial's decades long quest to keep Peter and MJ apart.

- It starts out with making Gwen more appealing by giving her MJ's hair style and showing that she can party down too and has an interest in science just like Peter, while also giving MJ a short lived hair cut that is noticeably less attractive on her.
- At a later point MJ turns down Peter initial marriage proposal and the writer gives us a deep look into MJ's back story to show why she has commitment issues. It is a well written story about MJ's abusive father breaking her belief in happy marriages and gives the character more nuance and depth than ever before. Which naturally backfires because now the fans love MJ even more and their desire to see her and Peter together just get stronger.
- They're married now and have been for quite some time so a new attempt is made. Gwen's cousin Jill and her family are introduced and some hints are given that she's actually meant to be Peter's true love. Later some random yahoo with powers stalk MJ and explode a plane that she's on. It is clear that the plan is to have Peter grieve and eventually move on to Jill. That doesn't sit well with fans. MJ is revealed to be alive. Peter saves her. Jill is never brought up again as far as I know.
- They split up because MJ needs time to think about her life and Peter is willing to give her that time. They are reunited some time later in one of the best Spider-man comics ever because they're at an airport where Doctor Doom is making a diplomatic visit when he's attacked by terrorists. Spidey has to juggle protecting Doom together with Captain America while also having a serious discussion with MJ. It's great and they end up together again.
- They're happy for a while. Then One More Day happens. The editorial team is using the devil to split Peter and MJ. That's how forced they're willing to go. And we think that's the worst it'll be.
- Nick Spencer reunites the two in his flawed but overall entertaining run. Then Zeb Wells decides to top OMD with the current nonsense with Paul, and momentarily fridge Ms. Marvel on top of it. It just stands out more because we have the Spider-verse movies and the Playstation games to compare them to.

I've been thinking about this for a bit. I'm just fascinated by how such a classic character as MJ frustrates so many comic creators.

[master of read]

They don't hate Peter... I think... though they make it really hard to argue that they don't. Especially when we have execellent representations of the character in other media while current comic Peter is just such a fucking loser.

But my initial point is that what they're frustrated by is the fact that fans really like Peter and Mary Jane being together. Even Stan Lee was perplexed by it. He intended for Gwen Stacy to the main heroine and love interest of the book while MJ was just the flirty other girl that could never have a serious relationship with our stalwart main hero. But fans gravitated towards MJ because she was fun, she had a more dynamic relationship with Peter with contrasts that made them more interesting together, and MJ like Peter and Spidey while Gwen hade major issues with Spider-man. Thus began the Spider-man editorial's decades long quest to keep Peter and MJ apart.

- It starts out with making Gwen more appealing by giving her MJ's hair style and showing that she can party down too and has an interest in science just like Peter, while also giving MJ a short lived hair cut that is noticeably less attractive on her.
- At a later point MJ turns down Peter initial marriage proposal and the writer gives us a deep look into MJ's back story to show why she has commitment issues. It is a well written story about MJ's abusive father breaking her belief in happy marriages and gives the character more nuance and depth than ever before. Which naturally backfires because now the fans love MJ even more and their desire to see her and Peter together just get stronger.
- They're married now and have been for quite some time so a new attempt is made. Gwen's cousin Jill and her family are introduced and some hints are given that she's actually meant to be Peter's true love. Later some random yahoo with powers stalk MJ and explode a plane that she's on. It is clear that the plan is to have Peter grieve and eventually move on to Jill. That doesn't sit well with fans. MJ is revealed to be alive. Peter saves her. Jill is never brought up again as far as I know.
- They split up because MJ needs time to think about her life and Peter is willing to give her that time. They are reunited some time later in one of the best Spider-man comics ever because they're at an airport where Doctor Doom is making a diplomatic visit when he's attacked by terrorists. Spidey has to juggle protecting Doom together with Captain America while also having a serious discussion with MJ. It's great and they end up together again.
- They're happy for a while. Then One More Day happens. The editorial team is using the devil to split Peter and MJ. That's how forced they're willing to go. And we think that's the worst it'll be.
- Nick Spencer reunites the two in his flawed but overall entertaining run. Then Zeb Wells decides to top OMD with the current nonsense with Paul, and momentarily fridge Ms. Marvel on top of it. It just stands out more because we have the Spider-verse movies and the Playstation games to compare them to.

I've been thinking about this for a bit. I'm just fascinated by how such a classic character as MJ frustrates so many comic creators.

yep. peter and MJ are one of the iconic couples in comics, next to clark and lois, and yet their own company seems to just hate them being together. part of this i blame on quesada since he never liked the idea of peter being married at all.

[bruceleegreyhulk]

[Len Ikari145]

They don't hate Peter... I think... though they make it really hard to argue that they don't. Especially when we have execellent representations of the character in other media while current comic Peter is just such a fucking loser.

But my initial point is that what they're frustrated by is the fact that fans really like Peter and Mary Jane being together. Even Stan Lee was perplexed by it. He intended for Gwen Stacy to the main heroine and love interest of the book while MJ was just the flirty other girl that could never have a serious relationship with our stalwart main hero. But fans gravitated towards MJ because she was fun, she had a more dynamic relationship with Peter with contrasts that made them more interesting together, and MJ like Peter and Spidey while Gwen hade major issues with Spider-man. Thus began the Spider-man editorial's decades long quest to keep Peter and MJ apart.

- It starts out with making Gwen more appealing by giving her MJ's hair style and showing that she can party down too and has an interest in science just like Peter, while also giving MJ a short lived hair cut that is noticeably less attractive on her.
- At a later point MJ turns down Peter initial marriage proposal and the writer gives us a deep look into MJ's back story to show why she has commitment issues. It is a well written story about MJ's abusive father breaking her belief in happy marriages and gives the character more nuance and depth than ever before. Which naturally backfires because now the fans love MJ even more and their desire to see her and Peter together just get stronger.
- They're married now and have been for quite some time so a new attempt is made. Gwen's cousin Jill and her family are introduced and some hints are given that she's actually meant to be Peter's true love. Later some random yahoo with powers stalk MJ and explode a plane that she's on. It is clear that the plan is to have Peter grieve and eventually move on to Jill. That doesn't sit well with fans. MJ is revealed to be alive. Peter saves her. Jill is never brought up again as far as I know.
- They split up because MJ needs time to think about her life and Peter is willing to give her that time. They are reunited some time later in one of the best Spider-man comics ever because they're at an airport where Doctor Doom is making a diplomatic visit when he's attacked by terrorists. Spidey has to juggle protecting Doom together with Captain America while also having a serious discussion with MJ. It's great and they end up together again.
- They're happy for a while. Then One More Day happens. The editorial team is using the devil to split Peter and MJ. That's how forced they're willing to go. And we think that's the worst it'll be.
- Nick Spencer reunites the two in his flawed but overall entertaining run. Then Zeb Wells decides to top OMD with the current nonsense with Paul, and momentarily fridge Ms. Marvel on top of it. It just stands out more because we have the Spider-verse movies and the Playstation games to compare them to.

I've been thinking about this for a bit. I'm just fascinated by how such a classic character as MJ frustrates so many comic creators.

And Stan Lee stated on multiple occasions for the last couple of decades before his death that he came to love Mary Jane and Peter as a couple and even used his final appearance (months before his death) in Marvel's Spider-Man to express how much he supported them together. Yet you got comic creators and editorial still trying to split them up in spite of the original creator's sentiments about them.

[grampagen]

I didn't realize editorial from that many eras hated the Spider-Marriage, that's wild.

I know Stan didn't write the wedding and considered it non-canon for a time, but I think Todd MacFarlane locking Mary Jane in visually as a - 90s modern - supermodel and the natural interplay between the characters set it in stone. She's been ubiquitously ride-or-die through everything, from robot parents to clones, and brought him back to earth.

In comparison, Gwen for a long time was interred in the same space as Uncle Ben and Bucky was, lionized in that character-formative framework as someone Spider-man couldn't save, and was locked in until the Goblin kids and Spider-Gwen.

No opinion on Paul though, kinda dropped comics after the Thanos Imperative and the Annihilators proved to be a team that was more interesting in theory. All-new, all different Marvel indeed.

[Nik Hasta]

- They split up because MJ needs time to think about her life and Peter is willing to give her that time. They are reunited some time later in one of the best Spider-man comics ever because they're at an airport where Doctor Doom is making a diplomatic visit when he's attacked by terrorists. Spidey has to juggle protecting Doom together with Captain America while also having a serious discussion with MJ. It's great and they end up together again.

Ooh, I actually remember that one. That was a fun story!

[Jcogginsa]

- Nick Spencer reunites the two in his flawed but overall entertaining run. Then Zeb Wells decides to top OMD with the current nonsense with Paul, and momentarily fridge Ms. Marvel on top of it. It just stands out more because we have the Spider-verse movies and the Playstation games to compare them to.

TBH, I'm 100 percent blaming Editorial for this, not Wells. Dude's been writing Spidey off and on for close to two decades without getting any significant blow back.

I gurantee you he was told to spit pete and Mary Jane up, he was told to isolate Peter from all his superheroic allies, and he was told to kill off Kamala, and he just had to figure out a way to make it happen. If someone else had gotten the gig Paul might not exist but it'd still be a deeply hated run because the fans just hate those ideas on a conceptual level.

Never forget, the guy who 'wrote' One More Day is also the guy who created Babylon 5. Never underestimate editorial's ability to force **** onto a writer's resume

[Sharkerbob]

They don't hate Peter... I think... though they make it really hard to argue that they don't. Especially when we have execellent representations of the character in other media while current comic Peter is just such a fucking loser.

>snip<

Yeesh. Had no idea it was that far back. It's interesting how these things develop!

Also, don't forget the whole Clone Saga, which was supposedly where the deal with Mephisto was supposed to originally happen to solve everything (at least they didn't go that far with it). But in that one, they tried to basically write Peter off as the clone, even suddenly losing his powers sporadically, and have Ben Reilly ("Real Peter" at the time), continue the adventures. In effect, it was another attempt to write the Peter/MJ relationship out of the series by way of giving them a "ride off into the sunset" sort of conclusion to that couple.

Granted, this would also uproot everything else about Spider-Man, but seeing all this laid out, seems clear to me this was probably one of the major motivators to getting the Clone Saga going.

People keep saying 'The Spider-man she was connected to wasn't the one in whose book she died'. Ugh.

Not...that it would have made things any better, but this just feels like 'we need to fridge a female character to give Peter motivation...hmm, Kamala is disposable, let's use her.' At which point you wonder WHY it had to be Kamala on top of the fridging, and hmmm, I don't know, maybe some racism happening in there as well?

The whole thing just reeks.

Ha, I almost said that myself, honestly. She was friends and teammates with Miles Morales, yeah. Not that it would have been much better, as you said. Hell, if this had been an issue of Champions where they were happening to be fighting a spider-nemesis targeting Miles, it'd have made much more sense, since at least that was the team she put together herself.

No idea what the motivation could have been. I mean, I figure she'll be back, especially with the movie coming out, but I don't know if there's time to do so. Maybe a miscalculated timing attempt to give her a big comeback while the character is in the public eye from the movie? I dunno if a quick death and rebirth is really the storyline to go with there.

from what i've read, she can't shapeshift into someone unless she has a deep connection with that person. as far as i can tell, that issue was the first time she ever met MJ.

Great, even when with the exception in play, it still doesn't work!

[Sharpandpointies]

So Ottawa is blanketed by a pall of smoke. There is no sun right now, despite being well-past sunrise. Everything is dark and brown. The air smells like a campfire, even through the KN95 mask I have on (I never stopped wearing masks at work and in crowds).

I've lived in this city for 52 years and this has NEVER happened before.

Welcome to climate change. The beginning has been happening for a while, but this is still the beginning.

[Sharkerbob]

So Ottawa is blanketed by a pall of smoke. There is no sun right now, despite being well-past sunrise. Everything is dark and brown. The air smells like a campfire, even through the KN95 mask I have on (I never stopped wearing masks at work and in crowds).

I've lived in this city for 52 years and this has NEVER happened before.

Welcome to climate change. The beginning has been happening for a while, but this is still the beginning.

Ugh. Sound worse than summer in SoCal. Be careful out there!

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

For Sharp.

[Dark Soul # 7]

yep. peter and MJ are one of the iconic couples in comics, next to clark and lois, and yet their own company seems to just hate them being together. part of this i blame on quesada since he never liked the idea of peter being married at all.

While Quesada was the editor that ultimately ordered the removal of the marriage, it has been in contention for quite some time at the Marvel offices. They only went forward with the marriage since they didn't want Stan Lee's newspapper strip to be the first media to include such a big change for the character.

And Stan Lee stated on multiple occasions for the last couple of decades before his death that he came to love Mary Jane and Peter as a couple and even used his final appearance (months before his death) in Marvel's Spider-Man to express how much he supported them together. Yet you got comic creators and editorial still trying to split them up in spite of the original creator's sentiments about them.

Oh yeah, I don't think Stan ever outright disliked the idea of Peter and MJ together. It just wasn't what he intended when he was writing the series and the pair's popularity surprised him.

But yeah, he was fine with it. As mentioned the man even had them married in his newspapper strip. I even think he had OMD dimissed as a nightmare Peter had.

Ooh, I actually remember that one. That was a fun story!

It really is. JMS was a fun Spider-man writer.

Never forget, the guy who 'wrote' One More Day is also the guy who created Babylon 5. Never underestimate editorial's ability to force **** onto a writer's resume

IIRC, JMS' original idea for OMD was to do a complete reset for Spider-man. Basically bringing him back to his teenage years. Since, if they were gonna remove the marriage, which was pretty integral to the character at this point, they may as well go all out and give him a largely blank slate. But the editors nixed that and went with the half-way point. In hindsight I wonder what a complete reset would've been like.

Yeesh. Had no idea it was that far back. It's interesting how these things develop!

Also, don't forget the whole Clone Saga, which was supposedly where the deal with Mephisto was supposed to originally happen to solve everything (at least they didn't go that far with it). But in that one, they tried to basically write Peter off as the clone, even suddenly losing his powers sporadically, and have Ben Reilly ("Real Peter" at the time), continue the adventures. In effect, it was another attempt to write the Peter/MJ relationship out of the series by way of giving them a "ride off into the sunset" sort of conclusion to that couple.

Granted, this would also uproot everything else about Spider-Man, but seeing all this laid out, seems clear to me this was probably one of the major motivators to getting the Clone Saga going.

Yeah, the way the Clone Saga turned out it was clear they were going for something like that.

IMO, they have all the pieces to more or less have their cake and eat it as well.

Have Miles Morales as the teenage Spider-man that can go through his own teen superhero hurdles and give the franchise a modern shine.
Have Ben Reilly as the adult and single Spider-man (or Scarlet Spider if you prefer that). If you absolutely need a Spidey that's a swinging bachelor he's your dude.
Have Peter as the Spider-man that's married to Mary Jane. He's been here since the beginning and he's grown up with new responsabilities, and you'll get bonus points from the fans that really like the Peter/MJ pairing.
Throw in Kaine as the edgy anti-hero Spidey and you've got a Spider for every occascion in 616.