Downtown Khazan: Ice Cold Utopia

[TheLastDalek]

I think it comes from the fact Bakugou spent 10-11 years physically, emotionally, and verbally abusing Izuku (who in the MHA world could be considered handicapped) and received no repercussions or real condemnation from anyone, including his victim. Not even for flat-out telling him to kill himself, which Izuku tries to handwave off with a "he didn't mean it and would be sad if I did", which comes across as something you'd hear from the victim in an abusive relationship.

Add onto that Bakugou didn't change for it to stop, Izuku did. Of course, that could be seen less as a fault on Bakugou, and more on the society as a whole, since they condoned his behavior through inaction. Because had Izuku not had his chance meeting with All Might and impressed him enough to gain One For All, he'd still be quirkless and would still be bullied, if not by Bakugou then others.

On the flip side no one in the class likes Bakugou all that much, his presence was tolerated by them at best. This was all a result of how much of a douche he is. While nice guy Deku got to be well like and respected by his peers. Atleast when they were put in a situation were their peers were decent people, who didn't put up with a bully in the group.

They gradually warm up to him as he gradually becomes a better person over time.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Nexflix has announced a new Ghost in the Shell, (Ghost in the Shell: SAC_2045) and it'll be produced by Shinji Aramaki (Appleseed) and Kenji Kamiyama (Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex).

2020 so it'll be a year ... but still.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

Nexflix has announced a new Ghost in the Shell, (Ghost in the Shell: SAC_2045) and it'll be produced by Shinji Aramaki (Appleseed) and Kenji Kamiyama (Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex).

2020 so it'll be a year ... but still.

The key question though, is Mary Elizabeth McGlynn voicing her again?

[Nik Hasta]

I think it comes from the fact Bakugou spent 10-11 years physically, emotionally, and verbally abusing Izuku (who in the MHA world could be considered handicapped) and received no repercussions or real condemnation from anyone, including his victim. Not even for flat-out telling him to kill himself, which Izuku tries to handwave off with a "he didn't mean it and would be sad if I did", which comes across as something you'd hear from the victim in an abusive relationship.

Add onto that Bakugou didn't change for it to stop, Izuku did. Of course, that could be seen less as a fault on Bakugou, and more on the society as a whole, since they condoned his behavior through inaction. Because had Izuku not had his chance meeting with All Might and impressed him enough to gain One For All, he'd still be quirkless and would still be bullied, if not by Bakugou then others.

I'll agree with this. I think the manga definitely tries to handwave the exact scale of shitlord Bakugou was while he and Deku were young. Deku being as weirdly emotionally dependant and friendly with him irks me because it doesn't make sense and isn't explored deeply enough for me to believe the relationship because it's not the centrepiece of the story.

Like, if we take the counterexample of Naruto and Sasuke, that made a lot more sense because we knew their respective damaged af backstories from fairly early on and we saw them meet, bond and fall out and fight and all the rest of it. It made sense because we saw it happen and they both acted in shitty teenage ways to one another. As Dog notes, Bakugou had been horrible to Izuku for literally about a decade prior to the manga even starting and, for some reason, Izuku still thinks of him as a friend?

I think Horikoshi has been somewhat scaling back just how cruel Bakugou is/was, playing it more for laughs than the actual violent bullying that it is, and is, I think, hoping we all forget about it the past in clear detail so he can move forward with the more classic flavour of rivalry. He wants that classic Shonen feel of anti-hero vs hero dynamics and the whole bonds through adversary and all that... but... eh... we are in a post-Naruto world and, while I think people will look back on the Naruto/Sasuke storyline with more understanding than was had of it at the time, that was an extremely hard and polarising sell at the time. This board alone had so much negativity towards Sasuke and the way he was handled even though, as I said, on reflection it was mostly very solid character work.

MHA is many things but solid character interactions it ain't.

This dynamic worked better with Goku and Vegeta partly because the modern shonen genre was much younger and Vegeta was a monster mostly in the abstract. He didn't have a direct and personal history with Goku, beyond being an antagonist for him for an arc, so it was easier for people to get forget his implied moral transgressions and get on board with him turning around a bit and becoming a family man rather than being a genocidal little bastard all the time. Bakugou is, in some ways, a bit too real and bit too close to home in our reality for comfort because violent bullying is a very real problem. Genocidal space monkey men are less so.

Overall, this relationship and Bakugou as a character is a tricky line to strike and I think Horikoshi has a much more complex task of humanising Bakugou and Deku's relationship than he realises.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

The key question though, is Mary Elizabeth McGlynn voicing her again?

Not sure yet, but here's the photo they used to tease.

[Nik Hasta]

Fun fact, apparently the above image - much like the design aesthetic for Detective Pikachu - was done as fanart initially and said fan artist has been hired to do design work for the new series.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Fun fact, apparently the above image - much like the design aesthetic for Detective Pikachu - was done as fanart initially and said fan artist has been hired to do design work for the new series.

Really ?

That's actually pretty sweet.

[master of read]

watched "the happytime murders" last night. funny movie.

and it's telling that this movie had better world-building than "bright".

[Sub-Zero MKA]

Not sure yet, but here's the photo they used to tease.

That looks nothing like Scarlett Johansson.

[grampagen]

That looks nothing like Scarlett Johansson.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

That looks nothing like Scarlett Johansson.

You complaining though ?

Cuz I ain't.

[The Dog]

I'll agree with this. I think the manga definitely tries to handwave the exact scale of shitlord Bakugou was while he and Deku were young. Deku being as weirdly emotionally dependant and friendly with him irks me because it doesn't make sense and isn't explored deeply enough for me to believe the relationship because it's not the centrepiece of the story.

Like, if we take the counterexample of Naruto and Sasuke, that made a lot more sense because we knew their respective damaged af backstories from fairly early on and we saw them meet, bond and fall out and fight and all the rest of it. It made sense because we saw it happen and they both acted in shitty teenage ways to one another. As Dog notes, Bakugou had been horrible to Izuku for literally about a decade prior to the manga even starting and, for some reason, Izuku still thinks of him as a friend?

I think Horikoshi has been somewhat scaling back just how cruel Bakugou is/was, playing it more for laughs than the actual violent bullying that it is, and is, I think, hoping we all forget about it the past in clear detail so he can move forward with the more classic flavour of rivalry. He wants that classic Shonen feel of anti-hero vs hero dynamics and the whole bonds through adversary and all that... but... eh... we are in a post-Naruto world and, while I think people will look back on the Naruto/Sasuke storyline with more understanding than was had of it at the time, that was an extremely hard and polarising sell at the time. This board alone had so much negativity towards Sasuke and the way he was handled even though, as I said, on reflection it was mostly very solid character work.

MHA is many things but solid character interactions it ain't.

This dynamic worked better with Goku and Vegeta partly because the modern shonen genre was much younger and Vegeta was a monster mostly in the abstract. He didn't have a direct and personal history with Goku, beyond being an antagonist for him for an arc, so it was easier for people to get forget his implied moral transgressions and get on board with him turning around a bit and becoming a family man rather than being a genocidal little bastard all the time. Bakugou is, in some ways, a bit too real and bit too close to home in our reality for comfort because violent bullying is a very real problem. Genocidal space monkey men are less so.

Overall, this relationship and Bakugou as a character is a tricky line to strike and I think Horikoshi has a much more complex task of humanising Bakugou and Deku's relationship than he realises.

Exactly. This is also why humanizing and giving Endeavor a redemption arc is so tricky. His actions, like Bakugou's are a very real problem many people have faced. He emotionally, verbally, and (and on one occasion that we saw) physically abused his wife Rei. He neglected and treated his "imperfect" children as nothing, and his "perfect" child he forced into isolation from his family while engaging in brutal training regimes from a young age and basically treating him as nothing more than a tool in his one-sided rivalry against All Might. And while he may not have been personally responsible for Shoto's scar, he was the catalyst that caused it to happen due to his abusive behavior.

But there is a difference between Bakugou and Endeavor's respective 'redemption' arcs. Bakugou's victim is codependent to him, brushing it all off and downplaying it (as are most characters it seems). Endeavor's victims, like Darksoul said, aren't (except perhaps Rei, but we haven't seen much of her yet). His (seen) sons hate him and tell him exactly why they do, and his attempts to say he's trying to be better are shot down with heated contempt (Natsuo) and emotionless curiosity if such a thing is possible (Shoto). His daughter doesn't seem to hate him, but doesn't openly like him and only wants a happy family, which requires Endeavor to be a part of it.

Then there's the mysterious Toya and whatever happened to him.

On the other hand, it's not helped when Hori has Hawks praise Endeavor's, well, endeavor to be better than All Might seemingly in an attempt to paint some positivity on Endeavor. Of course, Hawks doesn't KNOW how much a monster Endeavor became because of it (noone does, since Endeavor kept it all under wraps), so there's that.

[Sub-Zero MKA]

You complaining though ?

Cuz I ain't.

What?

I believe the character should look like acclaimed Japanese actress Scarlett Johansson.

...what's that you say? Scarlett Johansson isn't Japanese?

...oh.

[Beadle]

What?

I believe the character should look like acclaimed Japanese actress Scarlett Johansson.

...what's that you say? Scarlett Johansson isn't Japanese?

...oh.

Heresy! She is exactly as Japanese as Tilda Swindon is Tibetan.

[Nik Hasta]

Exactly. This is also why humanizing and giving Endeavor a redemption arc is so tricky. His actions, like Bakugou's are a very real problem many people have faced. He emotionally, verbally, and (and on one occasion that we saw) physically abused his wife Rei. He neglected and treated his "imperfect" children as nothing, and his "perfect" child he forced into isolation from his family while engaging in brutal training regimes from a young age and basically treating him as nothing more than a tool in his one-sided rivalry against All Might. And while he may not have been personally responsible for Shoto's scar, he was the catalyst that caused it to happen due to his abusive behavior.

But there is a difference between Bakugou and Endeavor's respective 'redemption' arcs. Bakugou's victim is codependent to him, brushing it all off and downplaying it (as are most characters it seems). Endeavor's victims, like Darksoul said, aren't (except perhaps Rei, but we haven't seen much of her yet). His (seen) sons hate him and tell him exactly why they do, and his attempts to say he's trying to be better are shot down with heated contempt (Natsuo) and emotionless curiosity if such a thing is possible (Shoto). His daughter doesn't seem to hate him, but doesn't openly like him and only wants a happy family, which requires Endeavor to be a part of it.

Then there's the mysterious Toya and whatever happened to him.

On the other hand, it's not helped when Hori has Hawks praise Endeavor's, well, endeavor to be better than All Might seemingly in an attempt to paint some positivity on Endeavor. Of course, Hawks doesn't KNOW how much a monster Endeavor became because of it (noone does, since Endeavor kept it all under wraps), so there's that.

For my money, Endeavour is the much more compelling character. He's a man obsessed with power, specifically the ranking thereof, and has crucial deficiencies in his emotional vocabulary that prevent him from interacting with people outside of that particular lens. Then, in a very interesting shift of events, he finds himself not only without a rival to essentially give his ideology meaning but also is thrust into the position of being the idealised exemplar of a heroic ideal that he's never actually even tried to embody before. For him, heroism was strength and, to some extent, efficiency. It wasn't hope, it wasn't kindness and it certainly didn't have any soft sides to it. It is entirely alien to him.

It's super interesting because, I think at least, you can tell that he's starting to think about all of the shitty things he did to become top dog and is now realising that the mantle of being number one, actually hangs heavy on him in very different ways than just being powerful and efficient. It's about being an icon, an ideal and he /knows/ that he's not that guy and I don't think he ever will be. All-Might, for all intents and purposes, was a pseudo-messianic being in his world and now Endeavour has found himself in the position of having to be the new messiah while being horribly aware that he is a man and a very flawed man at that.

The conflict of a character who is flawed, who is actually kind of shitty, trying to live up to the ultimate ideal of moral authority in his universe? That's super engaging to me.

For my money, I think Hawks does know that Endeavour has a sketchy background (Hawks seems to know a lot of things he shouldn't) and I think he's kind of right in his assessment of Endeavour being potentially greater than All-Might. Check it; All-Might, to our knowledge, has no skeletons in his closet. He never had to try to overcome his inner demons because he didn't have any to speak of. From all the flashbacks we've seen, he popped out of the box with a burning desire to help people, reform society and become the pillar of justice in his society. It wasn't hard for him to do it because he was, as far as we know, effectively born for it. Conversely, Endeavour is pushing back against his past, his shitty nature, his egotism and his temper in order to be a better person purely to help the society he lives in. That's arguably a greater challenge than anything All-Might ever had to face and does, in some metrics, makes Endeavour a greater man than him.

Conversely, Bakugou is the same kind of thing but not handled nearly as well. He doesn't, as far as we have seen, have the complexities and regrets of Endeavour and the fact he's so intimately tied to the main character makes that a problem.