Downtown Khazan: Ice Cold Utopia

[SpiderClops]

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[Jcogginsa]

What does Ant man rules mean?

[The MunchKING]

alright gents. evilrev just sent me the rules. so a week from this sunday.

super smash bros annihilation tournament 4: ANT MAN RULES.

Antman rules? Well then obviously I should pick another person-animal hybrid, I'll take the purple squid-boy. INKLING!

[Dark Soul # 7]

Mob Psycho 100 season finished earlier this week and it's been another consistently fantastic season for the series. But this here is the highligh scene for me.

This is a serious contender for best anime scene of the year.

[FrenchGemini]

alright gents. evilrev just sent me the rules. so a week from this sunday.

super smash bros annihilation tournament 4: ANT MAN RULES.

I'll take Ridley this time around, to continue on my Metroid streak

[Sharpandpointies]

It's not that power per say. It's how in anima at that level you get wildly different tiers shoved together. Things that are just the next logical step are side by side with plot device level powers. That includes not just psychic powers but spells and even stats. It's just an odd choice to have such things at all in the core book no less. It's also a very arbitrary choice for no real reason or benefit. Nothing statted in the setting needs "can lift anything at str 20" or "can move anywhere at move 20". It's certainly nothing that needs stating out and could just be listed under Gnosis 50 and called a day since only beings that high would should have it anyway. I like so much about anima, except the setting, but the powers at the highest level are just weird. As if they needed to list things the Beryl's and Shajad's could do when such beings don't need those things to be plot devices beyond stats. This isn't a slam on the game it's more like I wonder what went through the creators minds to have them put that stuff in.

My feeling is they want to have rules for the ultra-high-level non-Beryls/Shajads, due to having people CAPABLE of achieving these things. If Zen-level stuff exists, then they need to have Zen-level stuff for everyone.

No, there's no need, I agree. But it fits with the flavour of the game that the game designer wanted, where beings like the Messengers wander around the world, where Imperium can actually defeat creator gods, where the Powers in the Shadows can split the world into three, where Kisidan and Nerelas -- not even close to the top-end characters -- can annihilate entire countries by duking it out, etc.

The designer wanted rules that would reflect this, I figure. He could have gone with the whole 'Antediluvian' method (ie, 'Statless' beings who are just noted as being 'that powerful'), but decided 'Nope, I want to SHOW this through the use of rules', despite the fact that nobody would realistically achieve this through gameplay. And didn't want to just say 'Despite both of these characters being untouchable, this one is more powerful than THAT one!'

I have no doubts that the designer has stats somewhere (even if only in their minds) for everything up to Gnosis 50 beings. They had planned books for the Gods and the like, as well as a final book detailing the Powers in the Shadows which would have included all of the secrets and abilities of not just the three Powers, but further information on Gaira and C'iel (and their Beryls and Shajads), Eljared/Elhazzared, Nemesis/Lazarus/Keith, etc. Heck, he has stats/information either written down or in his head for Imperium mecha that are basically Evangelions made from the essence of a defeated creator god (my suspicion: the one who created the Gaia universe...ie, GOD).

Basically, for him it's fun.

The following is my own feeling on it, and does not reflect how I see other people's perspectives! I'll also note I see your point of view, and don't feel it's silly or anything. I get it.

For me?

I rather like this myself, because it gives me the CAPACITY to say 'Yeah, these guys, they're here and have THAT level of power. It's not a GM fiat -- They Are Always More Powerful™ -- it is what it is.' It also allows for the POSSIBILITY of someone defeating these ultra-beings (which is kind of a thing in Anima, looking at the history, the characters, what people have accomplished, whatever), because the game rules don't say 'No, you can't.' The game rules just say 'Here's how powerful they are, good luck if you're insane enough to try'.

(and I'm not just talking about 'beating them up', I'm talking about messing around with them, thwarting, escaping, etc)

It also makes it sensible for player characters, preventing the feeling of 'Hang on, Griever -- a level 10 Weaponmaster, nothing more, not even a legendary weapon -- supposedly killed an Aeon, why do *I* have to stick with the rules that say "Aeons are unbeatable!"? Griever -- an NPC -- is somehow more important than me? That's not actually terribly fair, I thought I was supposed to be in an important story as well.' Not saying that the players WANT to kill Aeons (they don't much care about that in my games)! But in a way, it puts the spotlight back on the players by allowing them, ultimately, to have a chance to do anything these supposedly legendary characters have done, because outside of the Gnosis 50 stuff, there is NOTHING that is 'unbeatable' in the rules. And nothing these legendary NPC's can do that players can't, one way or another.

It's just...really hard. ^_^ Take Omega as an example, and he's not even the toughest thing around.

Players CAN become this potent as well. They probably never will, and beings this powerful will probably never toss that kind of power around in a game, but there it is. This gives the game a different feeling (for me, anyway) than Vampire, the Masquerade (which I GMed for some eight years or more).

This is not matter of 'I let my players become gods then kill gods' <-- it can give rise to this kind of thing, and there are probably powergames out there where players have killed everything and lord over the world, but that's a group-style/GM issue to me, not a 'rules issue'. It's a matter of 'mood' in the game, for me. I've been reffing Anima for a loooong time now. None of my players have achieve level 10 or higher (though one group is now pretty close). But it creates a different feeling than in a game where it's just GM fiat that 'nothing you ever do or become will scratch the paint on these beings, give up trying to change the world, it won't happen.' <-- not saying this is your point, just noting it. ^_^ Certainly that was the feeling back in VTM.

I'm totally okay with it, myself.

[Sharpandpointies]

As a fun side note:

Having a strength of 20 in Anima does allow one to 'lift anything', but unlike comics, does not grant one some magical ability to ignore hardness, density, etc. One still needs a place to stand that won't collapse under the mass being lifted, and an attempt to lift a mountain will leave Ms. 20 Strength with a handful of dirt or gravel, while the mountain sits there looking serene (minus a handful of dirt or gravel). ^_^

Has nothing to do with the point being made, but is amusing. ^_^

[Guy1]

[Farealmer]

My feeling is they want to have rules for the ultra-high-level non-Beryls/Shajads, due to having people CAPABLE of achieving these things. If Zen-level stuff exists, then they need to have Zen-level stuff for everyone.

No, there's no need, I agree. But it fits with the flavour of the game that the game designer wanted, where beings like the Messengers wander around the world, where Imperium can actually defeat creator gods, where the Powers in the Shadows can split the world into three, where Kisidan and Nerelas -- not even close to the top-end characters -- can annihilate entire countries by duking it out, etc.

The designer wanted rules that would reflect this, I figure. He could have gone with the whole 'Antediluvian' method (ie, 'Statless' beings who are just noted as being 'that powerful'), but decided 'Nope, I want to SHOW this through the use of rules', despite the fact that nobody would realistically achieve this through gameplay. And didn't want to just say 'Despite both of these characters being untouchable, this one is more powerful than THAT one!'

I have no doubts that the designer has stats somewhere (even if only in their minds) for everything up to Gnosis 50 beings. They had planned books for the Gods and the like, as well as a final book detailing the Powers in the Shadows which would have included all of the secrets and abilities of not just the three Powers, but further information on Gaira and C'iel (and their Beryls and Shajads), Eljared/Elhazzared, Nemesis/Lazarus/Keith, etc. Heck, he has stats/information either written down or in his head for Imperium mecha that are basically Evangelions made from the essence of a defeated creator god (my suspicion: the one who created the Gaia universe...ie, GOD).

Basically, for him it's fun.

The following is my own feeling on it, and does not reflect how I see other people's perspectives! I'll also note I see your point of view, and don't feel it's silly or anything. I get it.

For me?

I rather like this myself, because it gives me the CAPACITY to say 'Yeah, these guys, they're here and have THAT level of power. It's not a GM fiat -- They Are Always More Powerful™ -- it is what it is.' It also allows for the POSSIBILITY of someone defeating these ultra-beings (which is kind of a thing in Anima, looking at the history, the characters, what people have accomplished, whatever), because the game rules don't say 'No, you can't.' The game rules just say 'Here's how powerful they are, good luck if you're insane enough to try'.

(and I'm not just talking about 'beating them up', I'm talking about messing around with them, thwarting, escaping, etc)

It also makes it sensible for player characters, preventing the feeling of 'Hang on, Griever -- a level 10 Weaponmaster, nothing more, not even a legendary weapon -- supposedly killed an Aeon, why do *I* have to stick with the rules that say "Aeons are unbeatable!"? Griever -- an NPC -- is somehow more important than me? That's not actually terribly fair, I thought I was supposed to be in an important story as well.' Not saying that the players WANT to kill Aeons (they don't much care about that in my games)! But in a way, it puts the spotlight back on the players by allowing them, ultimately, to have a chance to do anything these supposedly legendary characters have done, because outside of the Gnosis 50 stuff, there is NOTHING that is 'unbeatable' in the rules. And nothing these legendary NPC's can do that players can't, one way or another.

It's just...really hard. ^_^ Take Omega as an example, and he's not even the toughest thing around.

Players CAN become this potent as well. They probably never will, and beings this powerful will probably never toss that kind of power around in a game, but there it is. This gives the game a different feeling (for me, anyway) than Vampire, the Masquerade (which I GMed for some eight years or more).

This is not matter of 'I let my players become gods then kill gods' <-- it can give rise to this kind of thing, and there are probably powergames out there where players have killed everything and lord over the world, but that's a group-style/GM issue to me, not a 'rules issue'. It's a matter of 'mood' in the game, for me. I've been reffing Anima for a loooong time now. None of my players have achieve level 10 or higher (though one group is now pretty close). But it creates a different feeling than in a game where it's just GM fiat that 'nothing you ever do or become will scratch the paint on these beings, give up trying to change the world, it won't happen.' <-- not saying this is your point, just noting it. ^_^ Certainly that was the feeling back in VTM.

I'm totally okay with it, myself.

That's different from what I am talking about. I know you really like anima and the creators intent in it. This was discussed last time I brought up anima.

My "issue" is the arbitration of the powers on the highest tiers. To be clear, I love high end stuff, it's not the high end stuff that bothers me in anima. It's that they treat that level like we treat class 100. It goes anywhere from Hulk to past PC Superman. Despite the wild difference in power of those two characters. You have "just a little better than the last level" side by side with "gg setting" powers. With no real consistency, power to power. And the more crazy ones aren't really even there for any real reason it's not like you need them to be so open ended for some powerful thing to beat some other powerful thing. It's like the zero to hero "problems" of D&D taken to the extreme.

[Farealmer]

As a fun side note:

Having a strength of 20 in Anima does allow one to 'lift anything', but unlike comics, does not grant one some magical ability to ignore hardness, density, etc. One still needs a place to stand that won't collapse under the mass being lifted, and an attempt to lift a mountain will leave Ms. 20 Strength with a handful of dirt or gravel, while the mountain sits there looking serene (minus a handful of dirt or gravel). ^_^

Has nothing to do with the point being made, but is amusing. ^_^

I thought it was just as long as the surface you are standing on is strong enough to support the objects weight? It might be a bad translation since I only have the 1st edition English book. Because if it's just the surface you are on I must then ask what's the rules for carrying while flying?

[Beadle]

To Farealmer (I forgot to quote you, and Sharp will no doubt blitz me):

Without dividing it up power-by-power, just to simplify, I think an example of what you’re saying is that Level 20 Wizard > Level 20 Technician > Level 20 Mentalist > Level 20 Warrior > Level 20 Thief.

This is completely true. Power-scaling is not even, purely from a class-to-class comparison basis, let alone power-to-power.

But it was never designed to be. It’s like the ultimate in configurable systems, because any character can ultimately have any type of ability at any point in the game. Weaponmasters can learn psychic powers. Tao could have the Gift. And pretty much all spells are available to any magic user, all Ki abilities to any Ki user, all psychic disciplines to any mentalist etc.

If you were to take D&D 5e by contrast, the most configurable character class is probably the Warlock. You choose their sub-class, race, patron-type, spells (but only from the Warlock spell list, and only a fixed number per level) and Pact Boons. That’s the MOST customisable class and it still pales into insignificance compared to the customisability of Anima.

But with that degree of customisability, you realistically CAN’T balance everything, and nor should you try. Some abilities are more about flavour rather than pure power. Part of the reason you can’t balance it all up is because it is within the player’s gift (no pun intended) to make a hideously sub-optimal character if they want to. That’s tricky in D&D - sure, you could make a Gnome Barbarian, but ultimately that’s still going to be basically fine. And why would a thief even WANT the same destructive force as a Creation Wizard or high-Level Technician? They’re not doing remotely the same thing.

So sure, you get the old D&D 3rd edition quadratic wizards thing, but really... nobody actually gets to those levels anyway. You might get to 20th in D&D if you finish Dungeon of the Mad Mage or something, but to get there in Anima? Basically impossible.

[Farealmer]

To Farealmer (I forgot to quote you, and Sharp will no doubt blitz me):

Without dividing it up power-by-power, just to simplify, I think an example of what you’re saying is that Level 20 Wizard > Level 20 Technician > Level 20 Mentalist > Level 20 Warrior > Level 20 Thief.

This is completely true. Power-scaling is not even, purely from a class-to-class comparison basis, let alone power-to-power.

But it was never designed to be. It’s like the ultimate in configurable systems, because any character can ultimately have any type of ability at any point in the game. Weaponmasters can learn psychic powers. Tao could have the Gift. And pretty much all spells are available to any magic user, all Ki abilities to any Ki user, all psychic disciplines to any mentalist etc.

If you were to take D&D 5e by contrast, the most configurable character class is probably the Warlock. You choose their sub-class, race, patron-type, spells (but only from the Warlock spell list, and only a fixed number per level) and Pact Boons. That’s the MOST customisable class and it still pales into insignificance compared to the customisability of Anima.

But with that degree of customisability, you realistically CAN’T balance everything, and nor should you try. Some abilities are more about flavour rather than pure power. Part of the reason you can’t balance it all up is because it is within the player’s gift (no pun intended) to make a hideously sub-optimal character if they want to. That’s tricky in D&D - sure, you could make a Gnome Barbarian, but ultimately that’s still going to be basically fine. And why would a thief even WANT the same destructive force as a Creation Wizard or high-Level Technician? They’re not doing remotely the same thing.

So sure, you get the old D&D 3rd edition quadratic wizards thing, but really... nobody actually gets to those levels anyway. You might get to 20th in D&D if you finish Dungeon of the Mad Mage or something, but to get there in Anima? Basically impossible.

Well it's it basically a point buy and that's just how it is. Even GURPS can't 100% balance their powers. But the balance isn't an issue either as such. It's just the turn top end into a bin for everything from FF4's Thing to stuff even Silver surfer couldn't do. For no real reason at all. As you don't need them to work the way they do even as a flavor abilities. This isn't an attack on anima I am well aware other systems can be problematic as well. But it's like Anima starts as D&D and then at the last stretch turns into Aberrant for no reason. To use your D&D example, the difference between high level anima powers isn't the difference between a 20th level fighter and 20th level wizard. It's between a 1st level fighter and a 20th level gestalt wizard/cleric. Not just unbalanced but entirely different tiers of play and scale.

[Sharpandpointies]

That's different from what I am talking about. I know you really like anima and the creators intent in it. This was discussed last time I brought up anima.

My "issue" is the arbitration of the powers on the highest tiers. To be clear, I love high end stuff, it's not the high end stuff that bothers me in anima. It's that they treat that level like we treat class 100. It goes anywhere from Hulk to past PC Superman. Despite the wild difference in power of those two characters. You have "just a little better than the last level" side by side with "gg setting" powers. With no real consistency, power to power. And the more crazy ones aren't really even there for any real reason it's not like you need them to be so open ended for some powerful thing to beat some other powerful thing. It's like the zero to hero "problems" of D&D taken to the extreme.

Okay, that's fair. I get what you're saying.

For me, it's not a problem at all.

Zen level bullshit is zen bullshit, and getting the max out of it is not easy to achieve at the best of times. One either needs to sink CP and all stat bonuses into it and hope to arrive at 20 by level 10 (counting Advanced Ki Augmentation use to get one's stats to that level, plus Zen, because it's not otherwise happening unless one is a Creature with ridiculous gnosis), or roll 120 better on a Psychic Potential roll than the next level down (the gulf between Zen and Inhuman is three times higher than the difference between almost any of the other difficulties, so it's not just 'next level', it's 'next level that is actually far harder to get to than it is to go from 'Almost Impossible' to 'Impossible' to 'Inhuman'').

Sure, some of it seems totally arbitrary (Dex 20 gives...a slightly better bonus, Agility 20 gives...lightspeed movement Edit: only not, as I note below). Agreed with that (mind, Dex bonus affects both Parry and Attack, whereas Agl bonus only affects dodge, so the dude with the 20 Dex is actually far, far more capable in combat than the dude with the 20 Agility, assuming the 'right' defense is built up, which right there makes for a big difference on Dex).

And I can see the point with 20 strength versus 19, but then...the only difference in actual game balance is another +5 strength bonus. The only difference between 'lifting 150K tons' and 'basically anything' is...where are you going to find something that's more than 150K tons that isn't an aggregate of stuff that's going to fall apart? An iron asteroid that has crashed on the planet (in which case, trying to lift it won't work due to the 'asteroid is too heavy, you just push yourself into the ground' rule)? A Solomonic structure of some kind (in which case I don't really see it as being much of a difference, lifting 150K tons versus 1000K tons, when going from 18 to 19 grants 10K to 150K). Someone pushes everything into their strength, makes it the highest possible at the expense of everything else, I'm totally okay with them that one time uprooting that Solomonic defence tower and throwing it hella far, because hey, they put the points into the character for that.

But I'm not really worrying too much about the 'lifting ability' since they HAVE put in rules like 'You need to be standing on something that'll support the weight', and there aren't too many giant iron asteroids next to giant plates of Solomonic unbreakable material or the like. This isn't mockery, this is me feeling that worrying about someone lifting the moon is pointless due to the rule of 'can't lift when weight is too much for what is under one's feet'.

It seems more like shorthand for 'if it's possible to be lifted due to the situation, they can lift it'.

20 speed, yeah, that's a jump. Getting to it isn't easy, mind. Frankly, I'm again not too worried about it. Maybe it's just me, but when someone has achieved a 20 Agility, there are other things to be concerned about than 'instant travel anywhere on Gaia' (because the speed itself has almost zero effect on combat, really - it becomes a perk, and when someone has invested all of their CP into Agility to that point, to the detriment of everything else, I'm not really too concerned that 20 breaks the acceleration curve).

And is it such a jump?

Sure, it's only 1 characteristic point. However, by the time one achieves 19 in a stat, one is ridiculously high level (even 15 in a stat, to then use Ki augmentation, one must at least be level 8). To go higher is a HUGE investment in time and energy - going up to level 10 is hard enough (to get that all-important 16 in Agility so one can use Ki to boost it to 20, also one needs to have spent another 50MK to buy Zen so that's another investment), and takes much more time to arrive from level 8 than it does for, say, level 1 to level 3. So...there's quite a buildup one needs to go through to arrive at these speeds, and one more jump to get to 'I'm now at ridiculous speed!' isn't SO crazy (especially when it has zero actual game effect other than 'now I don't need to bother with travel time, but what about the rest of my group?'). Meanwhile, everyone else in the group has put stuff into more...effective...things.

Basically, the stuff doesn't affect the game balance except in very indirect fashion. Yes, one can hit an enemy with a giant Solomonic tower, but only if one happens to have one of those on-hand and the ground has been magically reinforced to bear one's weight. ^_^ It's situational.

...at this point, I'm realizing that it's possible you're looking at this from a 'logical standpoint', and I'm looking at it from a 'game balance standpoint', which MIGHT be why we're not seeing eye-to-eye ^_^. Which is totally fine by me, this is all just MY reasoning!

Anyway....

For the Inhuman to Zen jump in Minor PK, the psychic must achieve a result 120 (!!!) above Inhuman to be able to move something around at near teleportation speeds. THIS actually makes more sense, mathematically. It take 40 point higher Minor PK to go from 3000 feet per 3 seconds to 15 miles per 3 seconds (the jump in difficulty from 'Impossible' to 'Inhuman'). This is...essentially you need to score 40 higher on a difficulty roll to get it multiplied by more than 15. Let's consider the same result for Inhuman to Zen, only base it mathematically on a PROPORTIONAL increase in difficulty. 120 is like going up the jump 3 times, and each time we'll say it increases the speed by a factor of 15 (same as it does for Impossible to Inhuman..actually a lot lower, but I like lowballing). 15 miles/3 seconds x 15 x 15 x 15 (for 3 times 40 difficulty improvements) = Actually a lot more than going anywhere in Gaia in 3 seconds (it's over 50K miles in 3 seconds, checking the map demonstrates that one can easily achieve 'anywhere in Gaia in 3 seconds' with this speed, possibly most places three or four times, back and forth).

Again, that's not a jump from 280 difficulty Psychic Potential to 320. That's a jump from 320 to 440. And Psychic Potential, after a certain point, is one of the hardest things in the game to raise.

With spells, we're into the 'Must be this Gnosis to ride this ride' or, for High magic, have access to a sanctum set up properly (which is a high-level thing), the proper metamagic (again a high level thing), or a Node (hahahaha...there are, like, six or so, and everyone wants them and nobody wants to fight what is already sitting on many of them).

For Divine magic? Must have a Gnosis 40 to ride this ride, which (as has been exhaustively argued on the forums) is pretty much impossible for a player whose GM is actually playing by the rules (and if it's a creature, it's right up there with the top-end Messengers for Gnosis, or the Lord of Infinity, or the absolutely most powerful Aeons -- Rudraska has this level, but STILL doesn't have divine level spells -- or presumably Elhazzared), OR one must have a node and risk exploding oneself every time one casts a Divine level spell (also hahahaha for simply HAVING the node, again).

And yes, some high/divine spells are clearly better than others. O_o But...that's choice of Paths for you.

But mileage, etc.

I totally get the issue. It's all arbitrary, inconsistent, and illogical. The writer decided that 'THIS stat gets crazed bonuses but THIS one doesn't' (only for Agility = Speed versus Dexterity, it's not so much that because the Dex character can beat all hell out of the Speed character), or says 'Yeah, this one point difference allows a ridiculous boost over the point below it' (but it takes...gawd, so much work to achieve that, barring people doing horrible things to themselves with Chimera that can Very Much End Poorly™), or, or, or... It IS arbitrary. There is no real pattern (well, in the psychic stuff there's a clear pattern to the difference between Inhuman and Zen, buuuuut...my feeling is that it's predicated around the fact that the jump from Inhuman to Zen difficulty is truly staggering, and Psychic Potential is RIDICULOUSLY hard to increase to levels where getting Zen is easily feasible, as opposed to Inhuman. Also, it seems to more impact the stuff that isn't COMBAT related - ranges for sensing, movement speed, etc, whereas the combat bonuses MOSTLY remain roughly arithmetic to keep things more competitive between those who can achieve Zen and those who are 'stuck' at Inhuman...the big thing that sticks out is stuff like resistance rolls, and they seem to only get more difficult by 40 in return for scoring 120 higher on the Psychic Potential roll....).

But I'm cool with it, because it's the Outer Limits, so to speak. And I'm looking less for Logical and more for 'how does this appeal to my taste, and does it break game balance?'

Again, mileage.

[Sharpandpointies]

I thought it was just as long as the surface you are standing on is strong enough to support the objects weight? It might be a bad translation since I only have the 1st edition English book. Because if it's just the surface you are on I must then ask what's the rules for carrying while flying?

If the object itself can't support it's own weight, there's no reason it should hold any better than the surface below the person. The game gets realistic with the idea that you need to be standing on something tough enough to hold you and the object up, it follows that the object itself must be capable of being lifted without tearing itself apart. How does one come to that conclusion? Dude picks up a mountain, then walks over to stand on a different mountain. Can the mountain he is standing on support the entire weight of another mountain focused on the surface area of two feet? Nope, so he buries himself (in the rules). And if that's the case, can the mountain he's holding up support itself against its own weight over the surface area of the two hands holding it up? It would be ridiculously rules lawyer to argue 'Yes, that is so because the rules only state the former is relevant'.

There is no rule for flying and lifting, as yet. Maybe in 2nd edition. I could give you my own interpretation of it, of course, but it would be my own. Sometimes one needs to make a judgement call. ^_^ It's likely someone asked on the forums and got a semi-official answer, but I don't remember. Sorry.

[Sharpandpointies]

No blitz, here.

To Farealmer (I forgot to quote you, and Sharp will no doubt blitz me):

Without dividing it up power-by-power, just to simplify, I think an example of what you’re saying is that Level 20 Wizard > Level 20 Technician > Level 20 Mentalist > Level 20 Warrior > Level 20 Thief.

This is completely true. Power-scaling is not even, purely from a class-to-class comparison basis, let alone power-to-power.

But it was never designed to be. It’s like the ultimate in configurable systems, because any character can ultimately have any type of ability at any point in the game. Weaponmasters can learn psychic powers. Tao could have the Gift. And pretty much all spells are available to any magic user, all Ki abilities to any Ki user, all psychic disciplines to any mentalist etc.

It's also pretty easy -- and pretty smart -- to switch classes at some point, unless one is a mage (and even then).

It's not a bad thing to switch from a fighting class into a Technician class once one hits level 11 (or a Tao. Or whatever, really -- skill monkey if one wants skills).

It's not a bad thing to switch from Warlock or Warrior Mentalist to Wizard or Mentalist at level 11.

Etc.

And even considering the Quadratic Wizard thing...in Anima it's less of an issue, because while the mage has all kinds of crap he can do, the Warrior types who learn Ki...blow stuff up really. Really. Good.

Including mages.

So in terms of combat ability, the warriors/Ki users more or less keep up with the mages. Versatility? Mages, mages, mages. Survivability? Warriors, warriors, warriors.

Granted, this is just fighting, but still. Outside of fighting, the mages have to worry about Setting stuff that warriors don't so much care about. ^_^