Downtown Khazan: Ice Cold Utopia

[Miburo]

I have no desire to hear about you dropping logs, be they in mono, stereo or surround sound.

You don't know what you need until I give it to you. Fear not, my prescription is at hand.

Dr. Miburo is here to give you the audio logs you need, at the volume you deserve.

NIK. PUT ME ON THE PODCAST.

[TheLastDalek]

While I'm not a fan of certain, shall we say political stuff that's happened in Marvel's comics over the past few years, it never failes to amaze me how many people think ending that suff will magicaly "make Marvel great again".

I mean Marvel's comics had been pretty bad since 2006 and they continue the same bad habbits they started then, to this day. Those bad habits were there before the current politcal stuff Marvel is doing and will still be there when they drop the political stuff.

[Jcogginsa]

While I'm not a fan of certain, shall we say political stuff that's happened in Marvel's comics over the past few years, it never failes to amaze me how many people think ending that suff will magicaly "make Marvel great again".

I mean Marvel's comics had been pretty bad since 2006 and they continue the same bad habbits they started then, to this day. Those bad habits were there before the current politcal stuff Marvel is doing and will still be there when they drop the political stuff.

That's an overgeneralization

Hickman's X-Men stuff is doing great, Ms. Marvel's excellent, Immortal Hulk is one of the Best Comics of all time, and even the Thor stuff is both critically and commercially well received

(Also Comics have always been political and it's literally impossible for them not to be)

[Beadle]

I had issues with the Quesada years, but the stuff that started in the Alonso era has sounded horrible (I’d quit reading by then).

Their only answer is to let Hickman run everything. In one massive, convoluted meta-plot.

His brain is probably the only one that could cope with that complexity and still make it enjoyable.

[TheLastDalek]

That's an overgeneralization

Hickman's X-Men stuff is doing great, Ms. Marvel's excellent, Immortal Hulk is one of the Best Comics of all time, and even the Thor stuff is both critically and commercially well received

(Also Comics have always been political and it's literally impossible for them not to be)

Those comics are genruly aceptions and most their other stuff is pretty bad. My point is that while I'm not a fan of alot of the forced diversity stuff, I think it's getting used as a scapegoat for everything wrong with Marvel, when the problems that have been plaguing Marvel since 2006 will still be there when that stuff stops.

For the record I don't consider Ms Marvel forced diversity, but I do consider alot of the characters who came after her to be.

[Jcogginsa]

Those comics are genruly aceptions and most their other stuff is pretty bad. My point is that while I'm not a fan of alot of the forced diversity stuff, I think it's getting used as a scapegoat for everything wrong with Marvel, when the problems that have been plaguing Marvel since 2006 will still be there when that stuff stops.

For the record I don't consider Ms Marvel forced diversity, but I do consider alot of the characters who came after her to be.

1. The bad **** are also exceptions. The majority of comics are just okay, same as they were in every era

2. There's no such thing as forced diversity. That's just some bullshit racists made up to con people not paying attention.

[TheLastDalek]

1. The bad **** are also exceptions. The majority of comics are just okay, same as they were in every era

2. There's no such thing as forced diversity. That's just some bullshit racists made up to con people not paying attention.

I think the big problem is there being no status quo to get used to because theres allways multiple events a year the will "change the Maverl Universe for ever". It's ok to shake up the status quo everyknow and again, but there needs to actualy be a status quo to shake up. Everything get's changed before you even get a chance to get used to it and just becomes impossible to keep up with. Not helped by the constant shock value deaths, heroes being assholes and dark retcons on old fun stories. And you can't even escape it by just reading whatever individual comics you like because they get dragged into the aformentioned events for months on end.

I would say alot of the influx of diversity centric characters that followed Ms Marvel definatly felt forced. It felt like they were trying to replicate her success, without really understanding what made her successful.

[Jcogginsa]

I think the big problem is there being no status quo to get used to because theres allways multiple events a year the will "change the Maverl Universe for ever". It's ok to shake up the status quo everyknow and again, but there needs to actualy be a status quo to shake up. Everything get's changed before you even get a chance to get used to it and just becomes impossible to keep up with. Not helped by the constant shock value deaths, heroes being assholes and dark retcons on old fun stories. And you can't even escape it by just reading whatever individual comics you like because they get dragged into the aformentioned events for months on end.

I would say alot of the influx of diversity centric characters that followed Ms Marvel definatly felt forced. It felt like they were trying to replicate her success, without really understanding what made her successful.

They weren't trying to replicate her success. The writers of those books just wanted to tell stories that featured marginalized people in them.

[bruceleegreyhulk]

[The Dog]

They weren't trying to replicate her success. The writers of those books just wanted to tell stories that featured marginalized people in them.

By getting rid of established characters and giving them that name, because they're incapable of building up new characters with their own identity so they have to give them the title of well-known characters. They never do it with minor or forgotten characters, just A-listers like Captain America, Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, etc.

And most white people (particularly males), are either racists/misogynists or hopeless idiot ass-clowns.

The less said about Jane "Taking every identity in Asgard" Foster, the better.

[Miburo]

My general thoughts on the whole changing of the guard thing---As someone who hasn't followed all the comics, but kept an eye on the general ideas--is that it would have been better to do it slowly, as opposed to all at once.

Even if it wasn't truly pandering, the swift change of so many characters *could* be seen as such. It could just be widening ones appeal as well, which I don't see the issue with,save for it being too quick and overt perhaps. Character X taking up the mantle of Y isn't exactly /that/ uncommon in comics. Admittedly even that has caused some issue.

I personally have no particular issue with switching things up, and things like that have happened in individual runs, of individual characters. Maybe I have my facts wrong, but didn't all these passing of the torch moments or whatever happen pretty close to the same time?

I mean, even on a good day, a single character might have caused issue for various reasons, but the way it was presented, I can't entirely say it's not wrong for some people to interpret it as pandering. It would have worked better as a gradual thing, as opposed to all at once, and it maybe would have been better received.

Then again, some people are also adverse to change, so eh. I don't particularly think some chick being Thor, or Iron Man would individually be a huge deal, although if the entire guard is being shifted in a way that feels inorganic, I could see that as an issue, but I'm not even entirely sure that's the argument that was presented, so eh.

TLDR: I maybe would have proceeded a bit slower, but who knows.

[Guy1]

I think maybe we should drop this discussion at this point before it potentially gets too heated.

[Jcogginsa]

By getting rid of established characters and giving them that name, because they're incapable of building up new characters with their own identity so they have to give them the title of well-known characters. They never do it with minor or forgotten characters, just A-listers like Captain America, Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, etc.

And most white people (particularly males), are either racists/misogynists or hopeless idiot ass-clowns.

The less said about Jane "Taking every identity in Asgard" Foster, the better.

1. Using new or obscure readers is guranteed to fail in the modern industry. They have to use the big names otherwise there would be no point

2. Jane didn't take anyone's identity. Every identity she used was given to her by the previous holder

3. Jane's run on Thor was critically well received and sold well. More personally, I follow a lot of Comics fans online. And of all the people I follow, those who have read the book are all in agreement on something: They love it. They praise it to high heavens. And that's including a guy who did a multi-part podcast on Walter Simonson's Thor.

Meanwhile the people that are constantly hate the book are the ones who constantly bring up the same out of context moments over and over again. That does not feel informed criticism to me. It feels like they saw something online and looked bad and didn't bother to do any research before ranting about it.

I think maybe we should drop this discussion at this point before it potentially gets too heated.

Fair enough, I'll stop

[Gryphon]

[bruceleegreyhulk]