Superman & Wonder Woman Relationship Appreciation 2018

[hellacre]

I consider Tomasi's proper run being just 5 issues (his 1st arc). The remaining 12 issues he wrote were just 1 year-long filler before killing the main Superman. He didn't care much about keep writing a series and relationship that he knew would end in a year.



DC didn't invest much in alternate Earths. Nor it invests much in other characters outside of Batman.
What was the last alternative version of SM/WW as a couple? The Miller's one in the DKIII miniseries that although heavily features the JL it's a Batman book and marketed as such.

But this is my point about Tomasi. Regardless of whether he was there to kill SM and the SMWW book. His take on WW for example in his first arc was not well done because he went a 180 by trying to change the first meet and even Diana's personality. He did not care for the title. Soule left fans with the impression the book was I quote "in good hands" . Sadly it was not. Even if they wanted to finish the series. I'd assume most people taking on a title would at least have some loyalty to the subject matter or understood what they were writing and enjoyed what they were writing. He complained about Diana because he did not know what to do with her or how to incorporate her. How can you take on a series with that approach? Could have given it to someone else. But I guess he took it given he knew what he was going to get.

DC has/had Injustice, Bombshells, JL 3000, several Superman digital titles that went for 6 to 12 issues, several crossover titles with cartoon characters, Earth 2, Sensation Comics, numerous launches and relaunches of B and C characters. My point is...they can very well offer a new 52 Earth because many of these other titles never sold above 20 k. It could easily go as a 12 issue series etc because some of the nonsense DC has done wasting paper for filler....I can only think there is a mandate by the company to keep SM away from WW. Even as a friend. She is being currently put with other Leaguers (eg BM or AM) to try to be their bestest friends than the one character she's been the closest too for decades. I guess if the DK verse expands we could get a crumb tossed at us since Miller doesn't strike me as one to care about haters and editorial won't interfere anyway.

[LoveStar]

Cosplay Couple at a fundraiser

https://www.instagram.com/p/BoCd-KeD...d=35glzjn9u1gr

“Our story in a comic....the most special gift on the most special day.”

https://www.instagram.com/p/BoCZOGTh...=16nkpz8zx05k7

Casual Clark and Diana

https://www.instagram.com/p/BoCirWjB...=1mu2bfw09frlk

[Last Son of Krypton]

Yep! This duo too, is a great artist choice for SMWW. Husband and wife tag team!

I think the husband has already worked on SM/WW as guest artist.

Right! LOL sugar level through the roof!

Poor my insulin.

[hellacre]

Yes please! This design is perfect. Would be the dream book!

Wow. Yes. I need a SMWW AU with Clark with the beard.

[Last Son of Krypton]

But this is my point about Tomasi. Regardless of whether he was there to kill SM and the SMWW book. His take on WW for example in his first arc was not well done because he went a 180 by trying to change the first meet and even Diana's personality. He did not care for the title. Soule left fans with the impression the book was I quote "in good hands" . Sadly it was not. Even if they wanted to finish the series. I'd assume most people taking on a title would at least have some loyalty to the subject matter or understood what they were writing and enjoyed what they were writing. He complained about Diana because he did not know what to do with her or how to incorporate her. How can you take on a series with that approach? Could have given it to someone else. But I guess he took it given he knew what he was going to get.

This was already discussed early in the thread before you came back to the forum: the OOC behavior was probably editorially mandated as part of a new direction for the title (ie more drama for the sake of drama). I guess it wasn't simply the writer's fault.

DC has/had Injustice, Bombshells, JL 3000, several Superman digital titles that went for 6 to 12 issues, several crossover titles with cartoon characters, Earth 2, Sensation Comics, numerous launches and relaunches of B and C characters. My point is...they can very well offer a new 52 Earth because many of these other titles never sold above 20 k. It could easily go as a 12 issue series etc because some of the nonsense DC has done wasting paper for filler...

A new52 Earth doesn't have much sense as their current universe is still the New52 one just with more speedsters and a different Superman.

I can only think there is a mandate by the company to keep SM away from WW. Even as a friend. She is being currently put with other Leaguers (eg BM or AM) to try to be their bestest friends than the one character she's been the closest too for decades. I guess if the DK verse expands we could get a crumb tossed at us since Miller doesn't strike me as one to care about haters and editorial won't interfere anyway.

Yeah, it's obviously mandated from WB/DC because of the supposed direction of the aborted DCEU.

Even this has already been discussed.

[hellacre]

Even this has already been discussed.

I see. I guess by the time I drop by most things would have been discussed already. Oh well.

[Last Son of Krypton]

I see. I guess by the time I drop by most things would have been discussed already. Oh well.

Nothing prevent us to discuss these things further as we've barely scratched the surface of these topics.

[hellacre]

Nothing prevent us to discuss these things further as we've barely scratched the surface of these topics.

Like what though? We want SMWW but DC won't give it to us because of x, y, z? We've pretty much exhausted that as you say.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Like what though? We want SMWW but DC won't give it to us because of x, y, z? We've pretty much exhausted that as you say.

Should we change the discussion into speculation about what kind of circumstances should be created to have SM/WW again in some form?

[Xarek]

I recently wrote an article for my website on my top five superhero romance comics. Guess which made the list?

I know my top choice may be a bit controversial, but the Superman/Wonder Woman romance is always near the top of any list in terms of romance comics. The fact that their relationship has so many obstacles makes it that much more endearing. Even though we'll probably never see anything like we saw with the New 52 and Charles Soule's run, it's still special in its own right.

That list was top notch. It mimics my exact choices. Saga is a not a controversial pick imho. That story does not mess around.

Take a vacation to catching up, you've pages on pages of speculation, depressing thoughts on wasted opportunities and so on to read.

... and welcome back to the forum for the umpteenth time.

Oh, so in other words nothing's changed huh?
Thanks for the welcome (again) Ha ha ha ha! But who's counting huh?
I'm already catched up!

This was already discussed early in the thread before you came back to the forum: the OOC behavior was probably editorially mandated as part of a new direction for the title (ie more drama for the sake of drama). I guess it wasn't simply the writer's fault.

A new52 Earth doesn't have much sense as their current universe is still the New52 one just with more speedsters and a different Superman.


Yeah, it's obviously mandated from WB/DC because of the supposed direction of the aborted DCEU.

Even this has already been discussed.

A clarification: Diana's OOC as a plot device was not an editorial mandate. He wanted to take that direction in the story. Tomasi was pretty open about this (he is not a fan of the couple, btw). If I remember correctly once Convergence showed its ugly head, some plot points got truncated and THEN the mandate was to wrap smww up. I think I wrote about it in the old old thread somewhere.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Oh, so in other words nothing's changed huh?
Thanks for the welcome (again) Ha ha ha ha! But who's counting huh?
I'm already catched up!

You didn't take long, I underestimated you.

A clarification: Diana's OOC as a plot device was not an editorial mandate. He wanted to take that direction in the story. Tomasi was pretty open about this (he is not a fan of the couple, btw).

I meant that asking for more forced drama was editorial mandated, the way Tomasi decided to fulfil the mandate is up to him but DC editors could've wanted to continue with the "tone" of Soule run instead of changing direction so early.

If I remember correctly once Convergence showed its ugly head, some plot points got truncated and THEN the mandate was to wrap smww up. I think I wrote about it in the old old thread somewhere.

Exactly. The post-Convergence/post DC moving in California was when SM/WW wasn't supported anymore by DC.

[Xarek]

Should we change the discussion into speculation about what kind of circumstances should be created to have SM/WW again in some form?

That is a very good question. For starters I would say the re-implementation of the AU concept in the form of 1-shots or miniseries. This was very prominent in the 90's/ early 2000's and was encouraged by DC editorial back then. Writers would come up with their own ideas and concept variations on the characters we know and love without the need to worry about continuity or strict monthly deadlines. The reason the concept has all but disappeared is because comic book readers attention spans are now very low (which is reflected on sales).
The second circumstance that probably needs to happen is in WB management: having quality scripts in the movie-verse. It is no secret that Marvel/DC movie plots dictate comic book ones. That's how trends work. There is no superman wonder woman relationship (of any kind) in the comic verse because there was none in the now defunct DCEU. If 15 years from now we get a proper DC film with superman and wonder woman in it, we MIGHT have hope for some decent interactions in comics again. And yes, that's how long I think we'd have to wait to see these characters progress beyond the Rebirth phase. Change is slow.

[hellacre]

Should we change the discussion into speculation about what kind of circumstances should be created to have SM/WW again in some form?

Well given they won't even give us the friendship in canon, I am assuming only AU like their Black Label line which could be good given it won't have the same restrictions BUT question is will DC allow anyone to pitch something new with SMWW as a couple? Miller's verse was built years ago...so DK status quo was done already. Mind you I really am curious to see the Jonathan of DK verse explored. I want to see what he would grow up into given he was raised by Amazons as well. To see a warrior legacy smww son would be awesome. Give that boy a sword.

It seemed like post KC ( due to its success) DC had seen them as an inevitable pairing once time goes by in most future settings because of the characters' close bond and natural longevity.

Someone mentioned Miller wanted to do a JL story in World War 2 setting. I'd love to see SMWW with their golden age power set done there.

I also want to read a Superman getting outed as the status quo and staying outed. Think Truth but with his powers. And it will clearly show an ID does not define any hero's morality or choices. It would make life just that bit more challenging because he could not hide or lie any more to the public and would have to, like any person subject to the limelight or trying to create change in the world, deal with the good and the bad fallout that comes with that. A Black Label would be great for that. Many heroes these days have successful stories without secret ids. Of course Diana would be a perfect foil/ partner for this setting.

[hellacre]

That is a very good question. For starters I would say the re-implementation of the AU concept in the form of 1-shots or miniseries. This was very prominent in the 90's/ early 2000's and was encouraged by DC editorial back then. Writers would come up with their own ideas and concept variations on the characters we know and love without the need to worry about continuity or strict monthly deadlines. The reason the concept has all but disappeared is because comic book readers attention spans are now very low (which is reflected on sales).
The second circumstance that probably needs to happen is in WB management: having quality scripts in the movie-verse. It is no secret that Marvel/DC movie plots dictate comic book ones. That's how trends work. There is no superman wonder woman relationship (of any kind) in the comic verse because there was none in the now defunct DCEU. If 15 years from now we get a proper DC film with superman and wonder woman in it, we MIGHT have hope for some decent interactions in comics again. And yes, that's how long I think we'd have to wait to see these characters progress beyond the Rebirth phase. Change is slow.

Yeah , you prob right. We will be old and senile by then.

Mind you given the DCEU is shaky... The MCU is understandably used for trends because it is successful. If only someone green lit KC in animation one day. I can't see it done movie verse because as you say there is no smww in their DCEU and KC is dependent on the SMWW friendship as an essential foundation to its set up.

It prob could be done animated in a few years from now when the technology to create the look is there and 3d can be more affordable. So 10 years?

[Last Son of Krypton]

That is a very good question. For starters I would say the re-implementation of the AU concept in the form of 1-shots or miniseries. This was very prominent in the 90's/ early 2000's and was encouraged by DC editorial back then. Writers would come up with their own ideas and concept variations on the characters we know and love without the need to worry about continuity or strict monthly deadlines. The reason the concept has all but disappeared is because comic book readers attention spans are now very low (which is reflected on sales).
The second circumstance that probably needs to happen is in WB management: having quality scripts in the movie-verse. It is no secret that Marvel/DC movie plots dictate comic book ones. That's how trends work. There is no superman wonder woman relationship (of any kind) in the comic verse because there was none in the now defunct DCEU. If 15 years from now we get a proper DC film with superman and wonder woman in it, we MIGHT have hope for some decent interactions in comics again. And yes, that's how long I think we'd have to wait to see these characters progress beyond the Rebirth phase. Change is slow.

About the second circumstance: as I have already pointed out before, all the SuperWonder that we had in and out continuity after Flashpoint was thanks to DC's higher ups with the support from WB, but when Warner had to promote its (anti SM/WW) cinematic universe, the support for their comic division to push SM/WW wasn't there anymore.
So, to get back to what we had before, SM/WW need to be supported again from high. And with the movies dictating what's going in the comics as you said, the push for SM/WW should come directly from WB next time.

Maybe it will take less than 15 years... WB did make a script for a potential movie adaptation of Red Son. If it'll be realized in their line of Elseworlds films and features SM/WW as in the original comic books, SM/WW will eventually return to being pushed at least into alternate Earths by DC.