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  1. #211
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Do you think a female writer might inherently be better equipped or more aware of these things and could do a better job?
    Forget the old ways - Krakoa is god.

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  2. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Do you think a female writer might inherently be better equipped or more aware of these things and could do a better job?
    I do. I don't think the writer being a woman is a guarantee that the writing would be better, just as the writer being a man wouldn't guarantee the writing would be bad. But I think women are more likely to see problems with how women are written and avoid or subvert those problems. Gail Simone got her start in large part because of her women in refrigerators site, after all.
    I can also be reached on BlueSky and Tumblr. Avatar by kahlart.

    Ghosts of Genosha minicomic focused on Polaris, written by me and drawn by Fin_NoMore.

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  3. #213
    Fantastic Member Siena Blaze's Avatar
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    What era does the writer like most? Which characters are the writer's favorites? Which characters does the writer want to develop and explore further if given the chance? Why? These are just some questions that can reveal red flags for any character. It's hard to determine how someone views Polaris until the material is out there, and knowing if they wax long of a bygone era where Lorna was the decades-long love interest even if they don't come right out and say it that bluntly, would be a sign of potential problems going forward. It's more about what the writer says/does or did that concerns me.

  4. #214
    Invincible Member juan678's Avatar
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  5. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siena Blaze View Post
    What era does the writer like most? Which characters are the writer's favorites? Which characters does the writer want to develop and explore further if given the chance? Why? These are just some questions that can reveal red flags for any character. It's hard to determine how someone views Polaris until the material is out there, and knowing if they wax long of a bygone era where Lorna was the decades-long love interest even if they don't come right out and say it that bluntly, would be a sign of potential problems going forward. It's more about what the writer says/does or did that concerns me.
    Exactly. Sometimes its impossible to know. In terms of Lorna's last writer time told the story that it was pretty clear the 80s were his big nostalgic era when it came to his image of the character and it really influenced her entire characterization throughout his run. It was better then typical 80s Claremontian Lorna certainly, but very much in an 80s Claremont box. I don't think a complex relationship between Lorna and Emma was possible under the conception of Lorna that she doesn't believe in fighting for mutant rights nor using coercive force as an instrument.

    Under an early last decade conception of both characters? Hell yes Emma and Lorna could have had and could still have an interesting as hell relationship, with Lorna not liking how Emma often does business people while agreeing with significant parts of her worldview.





    There is only one way I could see their relationship proceeding on its current track (not in some AU future) as Lorna was depicted on Blue was something approximating Jean and Emma's relationship with Lorna angry at Emma that she kills people and very likely by what she said slept with inverted Havok though working together against some bigger foe at times and if I wanted to read that I would re-read my early 2000s New X-Men issues between Jean and Emma. The biggest issue last run's I had with Lorna was the character was stuck in a nostalgic era that she moved beyond.

    In terms of Rosenberg he has made it clear he sees Lorna through an early 90s lens and that was the era that in his own words defined the character for him.

    Rosenberg: We also have this cover!!!! You all have no idea how awesome it is to have seminal X-Factor artist Larry Stroman do a cover. His work truly defined Jamie, Strong Guy, Polaris, Havok, and so many others for me. This is the best!

    https://twitter.com/AshcanPress/stat...72110916358145

    Rosenberg: Thank you! (I love Lorna and Alex together)

    https://twitter.com/AshcanPress/stat...34482561486848
    I will just say I bought those issues of X-Factor at the very same time and it was my first impression of Lorna as a comic reader... was she was a good looking character, Stroman was a great artist, PAD was a great writer, but in terms of Lorna's overall characterization I was decidedly unimpressed.

    The scripting was amazing, better I would argue then any of the other x-books at the time, but the actual character was a weaker version of Jean and actually had a weaker voice then start of 1980s Lorna. PAD himself seemed to agree as he took a decidedly different track with the character in his past two runs and planned on significantly changing the character as he started to do at the very end of his first run. If a writer has an era that defines Lorna as a character for them it doesn't mean it will necessarily be an nostalgia enema for that era in her history, but... from my experience typically it does.

    There is a reason why I am not going to talk much about the upcoming Fresh Start changes and Lorna... I have said all there is to say and won't read the character going forward if its more recycled nostalgia (in-between mind control plots) for depictions of the character I never liked in the first place, didn't feel were good for the character at the time and certainly don't feel are good for the character resurrected today.

    I expect Uncanny Disassembled to most likely toss Lorna fans a bone or two before she ends up wherever they will her, but what I would argue Polaris fans should look for is not bones, but instead an actual direction that takes into account her modern history and developments and isn't recycled nostalgia and repetitive storytelling.
    Last edited by jmc247; 08-17-2018 at 03:45 PM.

  6. #216

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    Yes, juan678 actually some fans on twitter noticed because of the lighting shade it looked like Magneto's helmet in the background image when the promo came out. It seems Emma noticed as well. According to the Emma's double on twitter it was an great unintended accident of the lighting.

    https://www.instagram.com/emmadumont/?hl=en

    Some things I have learned in the past week from various sources.

    The promo we have seen up to the birth is all from the first episode and the episode has a conclusion that will very likely get people talking well outside comic fans and will certainly go viral in a massive way. I think dealing with the pregnancy plot line out of the starting gate is really good move all told.

    Also they are doing alot of two character teams ups next season vs group team ups so expect alot more Lorna on missions with one other character talking to one another instead of group missions. My personal take on what I have seen and heard is they worked on correcting alot of issues that season one had including being grounded, but not too grounded.
    Last edited by jmc247; 08-17-2018 at 06:53 PM.

  7. #217
    Invincible Member juan678's Avatar
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    now


  8. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    I find it intriguing how the version of Lorna here seems to be somewhat of a synthesis with her more rough/militant portrayal on the show

    Like it is beginning to creep into pop culture views of her as an overall character

    I understand this is of concern to some who want to view her as a pristine do gooder who stays within the acceptable boundaries

    And it can be almost a sort of whiplash since it is pretty different compared to her typical conventional portrayals of late

    But I appreciate it, at least it's somewhat different and interesting.
    There is a heavy cross pollination of influence among fans yes and it impacts how fans view the character.

    Anyway art.





    By apollos_daughter13

    Last edited by jmc247; 08-17-2018 at 02:01 PM.

  9. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siena Blaze View Post
    What era does the writer like most? Which characters are the writer's favorites? Which characters does the writer want to develop and explore further if given the chance? Why? These are just some questions that can reveal red flags for any character. It's hard to determine how someone views Polaris until the material is out there, and knowing if they wax long of a bygone era where Lorna was the decades-long love interest even if they don't come right out and say it that bluntly, would be a sign of potential problems going forward. It's more about what the writer says/does or did that concerns me.
    Yep. We can't guarantee that a writer will write one way or another, but we can always make very good educated guesses to what we can expect based on a) their past work, and b) statements they've made.

    In terms of Rosenberg, I now know I strongly lean against him writing Lorna. At least not until Lorna's spent 10 years away from Havok with no mention of him whatsoever around her. I already saw a red flag in hearing he considered Havok his favorite character, but seeing he's a fan of Lorna forced into relationship with Havok in turn tells me he's a fan of Lorna treated poorly as a supporting character to make Havok look better - meaning that he's highly likely to write her that way.

    That doesn't mean I'd start complaining about him right away if I heard he's writing Lorna, though. One thing I learned from how I was too quick to judge Peter David is that I should give most writers a fair shot first. Now if I hear he's writing Lorna forced with Havok, then I'll complain immediately. I'm not taking any more chances after Blue. If Rosenberg is a good writer, he should be able to like, respect and write Lorna as her own character without Havok. Otherwise he'll just give me a sounder argument against Havok.

    And if Marvel were to say "it's either Lorna with Havok or no Lorna," then I'd say screw that false choice. She was forced into being all about Havok for most of the 50 years she's been around. Marvel can stand to let her exist without him in her life for 10 years.
    Last edited by salarta; 08-17-2018 at 02:58 PM.
    I can also be reached on BlueSky and Tumblr. Avatar by kahlart.

    Ghosts of Genosha minicomic focused on Polaris, written by me and drawn by Fin_NoMore.

    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad!

    Gallery of Polaris commissions (without NSFW or minicomics)

  10. #220
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    Some things I have learned in the past week from various sources.

    The promo we have seen up to the birth is all from the first episode and the episode has a conclusion that will very likely get people talking well outside comic fans and will certainly go viral in a massive way. I think dealing with the pregnancy plot line out of the starting gate is really good move all told.

    Also they are doing alot of two character teams ups next season vs group team ups so expect alot more Lorna on missions with one other character talking to one another instead of group missions. My personal take on what I have seen and heard is they worked on correcting alot of issues that season one had including being grounded, but not too grounded.
    Can I ask you anything about these sources? Or what info you have when you say the birth will get people talking? And if it's all in the first episode that should allay concerns Lorna would be "shelved" like some people thought she was in the first few episodes of season 1 (I thought she was still featured and her storyline was the more interesting compared to the gimmicky one involving Blink and out of control portals).

    The thing about not necessarily entire teams all doing things but limited numbers, more intimate partnerships sounds good I guess. That would explain why I didn't really see Andy in a lot of pics, just Lorna and Frosts and Reeva. I still wonder if the Hellfire Club will get any more allies or recruits because it seems as though they lose not only the entire Inner Circle + William, but also it looks very likely Sage, Fade, and Mark depart early in season 2, whether by death or some other way. So that leaves like, Reeva + Lorna + Andy + Cuckoos and that's it. I mean it's a focused squad and they're all quality but still. Could use a bit more for the social dynamics.

    I also hope the Hellfire characters are allowed to have fuller characterizations , like downtime, humor, romance, friendship moments. Innocuous, or banal moments. Not always super serious and angry.

    I'm not worried about this for Underground of course they'll get these moments for sure.

    Also on the topic of Havok... I've noticed a possibly disturbing/alarming trend of late with people who only know Polaris from the TV show starting to talk a lot more about Havok. I guess they feel like since "Eclaris" is pretty much done, it's an opening for him? I mean in a way it's good that they are pointing out Lorna's comic roots and giving her more credence but yeah. I didn't care for Eclipse to be honest but Havok isn't really the solution
    Forget the old ways - Krakoa is god.

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  11. #221

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Also on the topic of Havok... I've noticed a possibly disturbing/alarming trend of late with people who only know Polaris from the TV show starting to talk a lot more about Havok. I guess they feel like since "Eclaris" is pretty much done, it's an opening for him? I mean in a way it's good that they are pointing out Lorna's comic roots and giving her more credence but yeah. I didn't care for Eclipse to be honest but Havok isn't really the solution
    It's a mix of things.

    Some of those people are fans of the show who simply don't know how toxic Havok has been for Lorna in the comics. See also how Emma Dumont was originally promoting him.

    Other people are huge fans of the Claremont era and love literally everything he's ever written, which includes ignoring problems with how he wrote Lorna and acting like that's the way Lorna should be written. So, they see all of this as an "in" to forcing that depiction on Lorna and regressing her and undoing any character development she's had.

    And then there are huge fans of Havok himself, who see Lorna on the show as a backdoor way to get Havok some attention. They see Lorna as a stepping stone to be thrown away the instant she's been "used up" for Havok's promotion.

    Notice a certain poster rarely posts in this thread now. Same poster who used to insist Lorna "needs" to be with Havok. Now that Havok's hijacked Lorna's return issues on Blue, got his own five-issue story arc on Blue, and leads his own team book, that poster's hardly around. Just like in the 00s, people who are really just Havok/Claremont fanboys and fangirls will say they're fans of Lorna and say she needs to be with Havok, but then they promptly stop talking about Lorna and dump her the instant she gets "put in her place" beneath Havok.
    Last edited by salarta; 08-17-2018 at 03:00 PM.
    I can also be reached on BlueSky and Tumblr. Avatar by kahlart.

    Ghosts of Genosha minicomic focused on Polaris, written by me and drawn by Fin_NoMore.

    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad!

    Gallery of Polaris commissions (without NSFW or minicomics)

  12. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Can I ask you anything about these sources? Or what info you have when you say the birth will get people talking? And if it's all in the first episode that should allay concerns Lorna would be "shelved" like some people thought she was in the first few episodes of season 1 (I thought she was still featured and her storyline was the more interesting compared to the gimmicky one involving Blink and out of control portals).
    The SDCC trailer is of episode one that means a baby comes in episode one. The second episode might have her still wiped out after and in bed (I have no idea in regards to that), but the show will be starting things off fast. Lorna might have a significant role in episodes 2-3 or she might not... I have no clue there. As for sources they are all open sourced meaning its out there already if you can find them. It has at least one thing better off not known at this very second that means I am not going to post it here. Though anyone who listened to all the interviews from SDCC will know about it. It is also something a discerning eye and thinking in terms of the SDCC promo might figure out out sans interviews as well.

    In terms of the overall long term implications for Lorna's character this Fall is going to be vital to deciding if the doors open up for her in games, merchandise and other areas. Its her 50th anniversary yes, but decisions are going to be made or have already been made that will determine if the character will be licensed again and how much interest she generates in terms of the press and public will be central to that.

    If not by the time we get into next year the focus will be on one film (and the characters therein) after another after another and it will be harder to break through the wall then. Once one game has the character again, other games will follow suit in time.

    Quote Originally Posted by juan678 View Post
    Thanks Juan.
    Last edited by jmc247; 08-17-2018 at 06:56 PM.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    It's a mix of things.

    Some of those people are fans of the show who simply don't know how toxic Havok has been for Lorna in the comics. See also how Emma Dumont was originally promoting him.

    Other people are huge fans of the Claremont era and love literally everything he's ever written, which includes ignoring problems with how he wrote Lorna and acting like that's the way Lorna should be written. So, they see all of this as an "in" to forcing that depiction on Lorna and regressing her and undoing any character development she's had.

    And then there are huge fans of Havok himself, who see Lorna on the show as a backdoor way to get Havok some attention. They see Lorna as a stepping stone to be thrown away the instant she's been "used up" for Havok's promotion.

    Notice a certain poster rarely posts in this thread now. Same poster who used to insist Lorna "needs" to be with Havok. Now that Havok's hijacked Lorna's return issues on Blue, got his own five-issue story arc on Blue, and leads his own team book, that poster's hardly around. Just like in the 00s, people who are really just Havok/Claremont fanboys and fangirls will say they're fans of Lorna and say she needs to be with Havok, but then they promptly stop talking about Lorna and dump her the instant she gets "put in her place" beneath Havok.
    Or perhaps it's because most of the thread is now about Lorna on the tv show rather than the comic, yes they're both Lorna but VERY different realities..., and I was never really one that said that Alex had to be on the show, and no I've never seen Lorna as being anything close to a stepping stone for anyone...

  14. #224
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    How about a lil' bit of each then, for the best of both worlds:




  15. #225
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    Found 2 vids I really liked, and had a hard time choosin', so am posting 'em both:


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