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  1. #1621
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    And now for page 2 of the Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me, drawn by Mlad.





    I know some people aren't keen on the content of top, left and right panels. Their use here is not to be mistaken for support of how Lorna was treated during those periods. It's absolutely not. However, they're parts of her history that I think are important to acknowledge - and that I think can be revisited and reworked into something good for her.

    The only case I'm leery of is the big bullet-deflecting Lorna in the right panel. I don't want Marvel to ever turn her back into that; only exception I'd see is if it's clear it's not her actual powers (not even secondary mutation) and it's clear she's returning to normal by end of the story arc using it. With that kept in mind, I can see that period acknowledged and used to get at how she felt about being turned into that, the body dysmorphia it caused (possibly paired with how she used to dye her hair brown when she was younger), etc.

    She's suffered through a lot. People trying to take her identity away from her and make into something she isn't and doesn't want to be is part of that.


    P.S. - Originally, instead of Pestilence Lorna, right panel was going to have a Stepford wife style Lorna to match the history of writers (mainly Claremont) trying to turn her into that for Havok. I ultimately decided not to use that angle because I felt this wasn't the place for a call-out. It also helped that Marvel hasn't been forcing Havok on Lorna any further since Blue. If they were, I would've felt an intense obligation to call it out with this page.
    VERY nice, Salarta, in ALL respects - I'm impressed! And I agree, I like to think her character could be shown to draw strength & resolve, from her more unfavorable, past traumatic eXperiences. Wherein she's been manipulated, robbed of her agency, and basically/tragically... violated.



    PERFECTly apt for Polaris, me thinX.
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  2. #1622
    The One Above All 616MarvelYear is LeapYear's Avatar
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    Uncanny X-Men #239 Dec 1988
    Inferno: Prologue - "Vanities!"
    In Manhattan the Empire State building starts to grow, demons possess many technical things like elevators and telephones.

    In a secret hideout, Mr. Sinister thinks about the X-Men as Malice rushes in.
    She tried to separate from Polaris’s body and discovered that they are permanently bonded.
    Sinister says, that this was the reason why he ordered her to possess Lorna Dane.
    He knew that the woman’s hidden hate, combined with the interaction of the unique energy matrices, would lead to such a result.

    Malice is very angered, but Sinister convinces her, that this is for the better,

    for now she is the only unique and irreplaceable member of the Marauders.

    In Australia, Dazzler uses a day off to do the single thing she loves most – singing.
    She and Longshot enter a bar and Alison is allowed to sing with the band.
    The audience loves her.

    Havok thinks about how much rejoining the X-Men changed his life, not only did he have to fight the woman he loves,
    he also had to use his powers to kill, even if it were only Brood. Madelyne comforts him.

    Storm researches some video footage, and discovers the interview with X-Factor's Cyclops and Marvel Girl.
    She is shocked to see her best friend alive. Immediately she tells Wolverine, who said he already knew;
    twice he caught her scent. He did not say anything, because he did not trust his senses.
    He thought he was going mad to smell the woman he loved.

    In an underground cave Psylocke fights Rogue and Colossus in a training session.
    At first she does good, distracting them with her telepathy, but with teamwork she is defeated.
    Rogue holds her and Psylocke asks her to let her go, yet Rogue refuses with a "Make me".
    Psylocke gives Rogue a mind-blast and knocks her out. Rogue gets up, again the eye colour change from green to blue occurs.
    While Rogue is out of the picture Carol has taken over again. Psylocke decides to take a bath in an underground lake.
    Now that their tempers have cooled down, she and Carol talk it through.
    Carol touches Betsy with her bare hand and is able to hold Rogue’s absorption powers in check.

    Slowly Madelyne and Alex seem to fall in love.
    They both lost the loves of their lives and now are all they have left.
    They spend a night together.
    Later Madelyne calls N'astirh and makes a bargain. Madelyne wants the Marauders found
    (who nearly killed her and stole the baby), but most of all she wants her son.

    Story by Chris Claremont. Art by Marc Silvestri and Dan Green.
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  3. #1623
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Polaris' history, the hardships and struggles, have made the character who she is. No one can change that even if they wanted to. However, I don't think it does Lorna any good by continuing to utilize the same writing tropes over and over again to tell her story. Mind control has been a staple for the character for a long time, and I don't think there is much more writers can do with it. I feel Bunn gave us the best resolution to that plot in Blue. Using Polaris' own struggle with mind control to give her the strength to overcome the possession. In an ideal world, this would be the end of Lorna's mind control struggles, but I'm sure Marvel will be back at again someday.


  4. #1624

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    Thanks on the comments for the latest page! I've been passing along peoples' comments to Mlad each time, but I still say if you have a DA account, head over there and let him know what you think directly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    Polaris' history, the hardships and struggles, have made the character who she is. No one can change that even if they wanted to. However, I don't think it does Lorna any good by continuing to utilize the same writing tropes over and over again to tell her story. Mind control has been a staple for the character for a long time, and I don't think there is much more writers can do with it. I feel Bunn gave us the best resolution to that plot in Blue. Using Polaris' own struggle with mind control to give her the strength to overcome the possession. In an ideal world, this would be the end of Lorna's mind control struggles, but I'm sure Marvel will be back at again someday.
    I greatly disagree on both what Bunn did with it and whether or not mind control should be used again.

    What happened on Blue was a quick, pointless in and out. We got nothing out of it. No insight into who Lorna is, how people see her, what she can do. Worse, it was a tiny footnote in a story arc dedicated mainly to Havok. So not only did it accomplish nothing, it furthered the idea that any stories that can be told about her aren't worth anything unless they can act as filler or support for the nearest man, usually Havok. It's true it could have been worse, and it's also the best writing I've seen of the Malice element so far, but that's really not saying much. Not as bad doesn't equal good.

    The Malice subplot should have been its own story arc. Simple as that. It should've been used as a way to see Lorna's mental landscape and key character moments, as a way to see how other characters see her (based both on how Malice-in-Lorna plays people and how people respond to her actions), how society sees her (especially post-Genosha and post-Pestilence), to see just how deadly she can be if she's not holding back to avoid hurting others, and so on. Instead, we got a lip service moment that may as well not have happened.

    And all of the above gets at why I'm not against doing mind control again. I'm a fan of the concept. I think great things can be done with it if it's done right. I'm aware Marvel has a history of doing a terrible job with it (Lorna's history thus far, not enough insight into the characters made into Horsemen for Uncanny, etc), but I'm currently still open to it if Marvel's willing to give it a real try. Aside from that, Marvel seems to adore mind control scenarios in its storylines to a point where we all expect it's inevitable. So if it really is, we can at least try to nudge it in the right direction where it has some real value and builds characters up instead of tearing them down.
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    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad, now complete!

  5. #1625
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Yeah, I don't agree with any of that, sorry. I don't think doing the Malice plot again, dragging it out, but making it from Lorna's POV somehow makes it better. I think there is a number of other ways writers can further explore Lorna's history, and not have her be mind controlled to do it. I personally don't care for having characters being mind controlled, and I'm particularly over seeing it done to Lorna. I also don't know what Havok has to do with anything. He had nothing to do with that moment, and wasn't mentioned during those scenes with Polaris either.

    I'd rather writers attempt to do new things with Lorna, and not just old things but remixed to be kind of better. My main gripe with Blue was that Bunn used Lorna in a way that just appeared to be a better version of the 90s. She was there to save Alex, much like when he was possessed by Malice in the 90s, and that whole Dark Beast/Brotherhood debacle. We had already seen what Bunn had done before, and it ending better, and being better written doesn't change the fact that it was just a rehash. Lorna needs to break free from that. Not double down on it.
    Last edited by Soulsword323; 12-30-2018 at 04:35 PM.

  6. #1626

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    I don't think doing the Malice plot again, dragging it out, but making it from Lorna's POV somehow makes it better.
    It's not "dragging it out" if it's a story that's actually meaningful, hitting notes that are worth hitting - of which there are a lot that I see here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    I think there is a number of other ways writers further explore Lorna's history, and not have her be mind controlled to do it.
    I agree with the part that there are many ways to explore her history. I agree that she doesn't "have" to be mind controlled for that to happen. I disagree with the suggestion that this means mind control isn't an acceptable method.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    I also don't know what Havok has to do with anything. He had nothing to do with that moment, and wasn't mentioned during those scenes with Polaris either.
    It was done in a story arc mainly dedicated to him. The purpose of bringing up Malice ended up being to provide filler for his story, and to juxtapose his story of being evil via inversion with her incredibly brief story of being evil via possession. Its use here was to serve him. Not her own story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    My main gripe with Blue was that Bunn used Lorna in a way that just appeared to be a better version of the 90s. She was there to save Alex, much like when he was possessed by Malice in the 90s, and that whole Dark Beast/Brotherhood debacle. We had already seen what Bunn had done before, and it ending better, and being better written doesn't change the fact that it was just a rehash. Lorna needs to break free from that. Not double down on it.
    The problems I saw weren't of trying to rehash the 90s. They were of Bunn seeing her mainly from a male-centric POV of how she can be useful to Havok and Magneto. Take out the inversion, say Havok is doing what he's doing cause he actually believes in it, and you still have a scenario where Lorna's mainly there to try to change his mind. The problem wasn't mind control (or rather, something close to it). It was the dynamics of how to treat this female character around male characters that the writer was more interested in.


    In the end, I'm pretty sure we'll remain on opposite views about mind control with Lorna. Which is fine. Differing views are important because different people see different pros, cons, possibilities and risks, etc. We can at least agree that what's happened before is important to her history, and that Marvel should do things other than mind control as part of exploring her character. I just don't consider mind control off-limits.
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    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad, now complete!

  7. #1627
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    In the end, I'm pretty sure we'll remain on opposite views about mind control with Lorna. Which is fine. Differing views are important because different people see different pros, cons, possibilities and risks, etc. We can at least agree that what's happened before is important to her history, and that Marvel should do things other than mind control as part of exploring her character. I just don't consider mind control off-limits.
    Yeah, I agree with that.

  8. #1628
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    I also feel the Malice thing with her in BLUE was *waaaay* too quick and so it didn't really pack a lot of emotional punch I don't think.

    Something that significant like "the end of being mind controllable" should really have gone on way more and been advertised in the covers of the book etc.

    That is a more suitable story arc for a Polaris solo book really. It's that important.

    The way it happened it feels more like ... yet another mind control plot, albeit a really rapidly resolved one, but that just makes it even less meaningful than her other times really, not more.

    I think the way to have her character resolve the mind control vulnerability is basically to finally have her feel a firm decisiveness mentally emotionally. Not to be so wishy washy and all over the place. And possibly also get into how manipulations of EM Force shield your mind.

    I do believe Polaris was mainly portrayed in a strong way on BLUE though. But then in Uncanny I feel she's regressed, and that's the problem. Without being written by people who know/care of her history and want to get her on the correct path, she'll keep having tentative steps toward development undone.
    Last edited by AbnormallyNormal; 12-30-2018 at 05:11 PM.
    Chris Claremont, Peter David, Mike Carey, Cullen Bunn = canon. Others = fanfic.

  9. #1629
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    Just absolutely FANtastic!

  10. #1630
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    I liked that it was short and to the point. To me it was a powerful moment for Lorna. One that acknowledged her struggle with Malice before, and then used that experience as a means to beat this Malice. Had it gone on any longer I would have been annoyed.

    If Polaris were to ever get a mini series, I would really hope that they wouldn't use Malice/Mind Control as the focus of the series. There's a number of other things one could do with that time, and I personally wouldn't want to read a series that finally focuses on Polaris, only for her to be under someone else influence. Have her rebuild Genosha. Use her history there as a means to see what she would do different, if she were the one leading. Explore what Polaris was up to in between Milligan and Brubaker's run, when Lorna was in Egypt after recovering her powers. A lot people could do, and that wouldn't require her agency to be taken from her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heroine Addict View Post


    Just absolutely FANtastic!
    Beautiful! Really well done manip.

  11. #1631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    Polaris' history, the hardships and struggles, have made the character who she is. No one can change that even if they wanted to. However, I don't think it does Lorna any good by continuing to utilize the same writing tropes over and over again to tell her story. Mind control has been a staple for the character for a long time, and I don't think there is much more writers can do with it. I feel Bunn gave us the best resolution to that plot in Blue. Using Polaris' own struggle with mind control to give her the strength to overcome the possession. In an ideal world, this would be the end of Lorna's mind control struggles, but I'm sure Marvel will be back at again someday.

    I doubt it. Just as it’s no longer cool to portray Jean is fainting, we won’t see Lorna constantly mind controlled. The Malice possession was really Claremont’s writing Lorna out of the picture long term as he did not like her. He also removed her magnetic powers. But she is now popular thanks to the gifted and due to being Magneto’s daughter. The merger will close soon and in 2019 Wanda and Pietro will be restored to bring Magneto’s kids. Polaris has gotten a lot of development in Gifted, and we will see her in the movies at some point.

  12. #1632
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    I liked that it was short and to the point. To me it was a powerful moment for Lorna. One that acknowledged her struggle with Malice before, and then used that experience as a means to beat this Malice. Had it gone on any longer I would have been annoyed.

    If Polaris were to ever get a mini series, I would really hope that they wouldn't use Malice/Mind Control as the focus of the series. There's a number of other things one could do with that time, and I personally wouldn't want to read a series that finally focuses on Polaris, only for her to be under someone else influence. Have her rebuild Genosha. Use her history there as a means to see what she would do different, if she were the one leading. Explore what Polaris was up to in between Milligan and Brubaker's run, when Lorna was in Egypt after recovering her powers. A lot people could do, and that wouldn't require her agency to be taken from her.
    Yeah I'm not saying I would want a solo comic about her to revolve around "the end of mind control" by any means

    I'm just saying if you want to make that a story point it would be such a crucial important thing it should only take place in a solo dedicated to her where it can really be adequately emphasized. Of course her solo should focus on other things as well, and probably not do a mind control story at all for a while if it even does.

    In a way you could view all those things you mention as part of changing her character or consolidating her character which is an aspect to her not being so easily mind controlled
    Chris Claremont, Peter David, Mike Carey, Cullen Bunn = canon. Others = fanfic.

  13. #1633

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    I also feel the Malice thing with her in BLUE was *waaaay* too quick and so it didn't really pack a lot of emotional punch I don't think.

    Something that significant like "the end of being mind controllable" should really have gone on way more and been advertised in the covers of the book etc.

    That is a more suitable story arc for a Polaris solo book really. It's that important.
    The problem is that Marvel's had cases before of saying Lorna can no longer be mind controlled (e.g. end of time as Pestilence), only for her to then get mind controlled yet again not too long after. I'm honestly kind of surprised that Marvel managed to go 6-7 years without doing it (from Five Miles South of the Universe in 2011/2012 to X-Men Blue in 2018).

    I agree that if they're going to do it, it should have more effort put into it with treating Lorna well taking the highest priority. As has been noted, they've done mind control on her way too much throughout her history to be lazy about it. Not just for Lorna fans and respect for the character, but for how utterly boring it would be for everyone else to see a half-baked use yet again.

    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    And possibly also get into how manipulations of EM Force shield your mind.
    This would probably be the best shot at Lorna no longer getting mind-controlled, or attempts to control her needing to be overwhelmingly powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    I do believe Polaris was mainly portrayed in a strong way on BLUE though. But then in Uncanny I feel she's regressed, and that's the problem. Without being written by people who know/care of her history and want to get her on the correct path, she'll keep having tentative steps toward development undone.
    I think Blue was mostly a step backward, while Uncanny's been a step forward. Blue mostly used her to benefit Havok and Magneto, but Uncanny let her interact with other characters like X-23 for herself. I also think the way Bunn ended use of her on Blue - by saying she's now running a Madripoor school - actually would've been bad for her. While the title of headmaster would've been a step up, the location and obscurity would've made it into a step down. Change the location to Genosha, the U.S., a place with either more history or connections to other big orgs and it could've been good. As it was set up, she would've been out of the loop of ongoing events and likely unable to interact with characters like Jean, Iceman, Scarlet Witch, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    If Polaris were to ever get a mini series, I would really hope that they wouldn't use Malice/Mind Control as the focus of the series.
    Agreed on this. I'm interested in it for a story arc of an ongoing (solo, team, whatever), but if it's a oneshot or mini, that shouldn't be the focus. It would imply that Malice/mind control is the main thing to know about her when it isn't. Moderation is essential.



    There's one more thing I want to say to get ahead of arguments I've already seen some people try to toss around. If Gifted goes under, it does not mean Polaris was a bad character and the show spent too much time on her. It's actually a testament to her viability that the show got a second season on the back of interest in her.

    No, if Gifted goes under, it means the show did other things that made people lose interest. My main argument is that it treated character death poorly, prime example being what happened with Dreamer. But there may have been other factors as well; another I see being that it dove too deep into grimdark without some good, interesting light elements to balance it out.

    I can say this because despite being the Polaris fan that I am, I stopped watching the show toward the end of season 1 specifically because of the show's flaws that had nothing to do with Lorna. Even with all my fandom for her, it wasn't enough to make me stay. So anyone blaming her if the show goes under is just flat out wrong.
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    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad, now complete!

  14. #1634
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    There's one more thing I want to say to get ahead of arguments I've already seen some people try to toss around. If Gifted goes under, it does not mean Polaris was a bad character and the show spent too much time on her. It's actually a testament to her viability that the show got a second season on the back of interest in her.

    No, if Gifted goes under, it means the show did other things that made people lose interest. My main argument is that it treated character death poorly, prime example being what happened with Dreamer. But there may have been other factors as well; another I see being that it dove too deep into grimdark without some good, interesting light elements to balance it out.

    I can say this because despite being the Polaris fan that I am, I stopped watching the show toward the end of season 1 specifically because of the show's flaws that had nothing to do with Lorna. Even with all my fandom for her, it wasn't enough to make me stay. So anyone blaming her if the show goes under is just flat out wrong.
    People are actually saying the focus on Polaris is the reason The Gifted has not so great ratings in season 2? I never heard anyone say that, and that's really surprising if anyone does. I mean it's so clearly counter-intuitive and bizarre.

    Polaris is the #1 fan favorite of any of the show's characters, so such an "argument" is on the face of it, just... preposterous.

    As far as whether the show is too "grimdark" well I am sure for some people it is , but there are also people like me who find that appealing about it, so it might balance out.

    I've been trying to come up with reasons why the show isn't watched more and I have a few, mainly it's a combo of 1) Not enough well known characters from the lore to bring in casuals 2) It's not connected to the MCU so people who care about that might not be as interested, plus this ties into the whole sense of how FOX-verse in general "is a mess" in terms of internal continuity, and the fact Disney is on the verge of acquiring FOX's properties might give the impression to a lot of potential fans not to bother with the show since they assume it "won't matter soon" and will be abandoned in favor of some rebooted show. Finally 3) The action scenes/battles in the show are kinda few and far between and when they do happen they could be considerably more impressive also.

    So yeah I am sure those three things explain it not "Polaris sucks" or even "Dreamer dying was a travesty". Dreamer did have a decent cult following but honestly there is 0 chance her demise was a big contributing factor in the ratings decline for s2.
    Chris Claremont, Peter David, Mike Carey, Cullen Bunn = canon. Others = fanfic.

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