Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2018

[Revenant]

Double post.

[phoenixzero23]

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if KT likes/dislikes Jean. Writers are professionals hired to do their best to tell a story, i'm sure she will do her best to write Jean regardless of her much greater love for emma.

[Wiccan]

I'm quite mad about the annual, it was boring and pretty useless. Just like PR.

But Extermination was so damn good.



Genetically talking, Jean would be Cable's aunt, because Madeleine is basically Jean's twin (their ADN is almost the same, but they are not identical). But Jean raised Nathan as Redd so she's his mother.

What? No, Jean and Maddie are identical.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if KT likes/dislikes Jean. Writers are professionals hired to do their best to tell a story, i'm sure she will do her best to write Jean regardless of her much greater love for emma.

Err, I wouldn't say it doesn't matter. A writer who loves the characters is more often than not, gonna write them better, because it means they understand them, and understand why others love them too. And they're also more likely to know continuity enough to keep their voice right.

I don't think Kelly is gonna write Jean badly on purpose or anything. And she's only one of three writers, and the other 2 seem to like Jean. So I'm not really worried. But I think it's understandable to be.

[Revenant]

What? No, Jean and Maddie are identical.

I meant that their ADN is not 100% identical. As it isn't for "identical" twins.

[TheCape]

What? No, Jean and Maddie are identical.



Err, I wouldn't say it doesn't matter. A writer who loves the characters is more often than not, gonna write them better, because it means they understand them, and understand why others love them too. And they're also more likely to know continuity enough to keep their voice right.

I don't think Kelly is gonna write Jean badly on purpose or anything. And she's only one of three writers, and the other 2 seem to like Jean. So I'm not really worried. But I think it's understandable to be.

That's true, Guggenheim Kitty was just pure Gold

[Wiccan]

I meant that their ADN is not 100% identical. As it isn't for "identical" twins.

But they're not actual twins. Maddie was created from a copy of Jean's DNA, so their DNA is identical...

That's true, Guggenheim Kitty was just pure Gold

Lol. But Guggenheim's writing is just so bad that both the ones he loves, likes, dislikes, hates... They're all gonna be written badly.

[spirit2011]

I just wanted to add a quick note about KT since I mentioned earlier that she wasn't a big fan of Jean. I never intended on people to go to her tumblr and start asking a bunch of Jean questions or to give her heck over it. We all have our favorite characters. We like what we like and for various reasons. It is ok if she is not the biggest Jean fan and harassing her will definitely not help your cause.

I'm not sure what to think of Matt Rosenberg but yet on twitter I'm very polite and often 'like' his posts. You get more flies with honey!

I think KT understand very well Jean fans being a little nervous of her writing Jean. The last time someone was meh about Jean, it wasn't any cool for us.

[Harpsikord]

I meant that their ADN is not 100% identical. As it isn't for "identical" twins.

It is 100% identical though. They aren't clones in the sense that X-23 used to be believed to be a clone of Logan, they literally share the exact same genetic makeup.

[Revenant]

But they're not actual twins. Maddie was created from a copy of Jean's DNA, so their DNA is identical...

Not really. DNA variations should be present between the 2 bc they did not develop in the same environment. Btw, this also applies to alternate versions of the same character, so that's why Nate Grey isn't Cable, and that Jean isn't Rachel's mother.
https://www.quora.com/Could-two-peop...t-being-cloned
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/health/11real.html
https://www.genome.gov/25020028/cloning-fact-sheet/

[Ulfhammer]

I've been thinking about this and trying to come up with an explanation that won't make me gag. The best I've been able to do is not that X outright brainwashed them, but that he did something similar to what Jean did at the end of Morrison's Here Comes Tomorrow (or my interpretation of it).

I've always believed that Jean pushed Scott to get past his grief over her dieing so it wouldn't derail his life and he could get back to leading the X-Men when they needed him. Xavier claimed outright that the 04 were having a pity party over what their lives have turned into, and in the end did something similar so the 04 would get back to doing X-work.

The issue is written in a way that makes me think it takes place not long after Jean was resurrected because even though they were all there for it they act like they haven't gotten any quality time in. This means Jean herself would be still dealing with being alive again, learning everything the X-Men went through, and grieving over Scott (and the rest of her family) being dead.

So X saw all that and decided to expedite the mourning process...Best I could do.

That's a rather beneficent interpretation of HCT but I do see a lot of parallels between the thrust of the two stories. The problem with these interpretations is that grieving is a natural and beneficial process. Hijacking the process is akin to drinking that magic elixer that will take all our pain away. As we all know, their is no true shortcut to coming to terms with any kind of loss. It doesn't work in real life and frankly it didn't work after HCT either in Scott's case. You can argue that grief is some kind of sickness that can justifiably be waved away with a magic wand but the process of accepting loss and finding meaning in life despite it, tempers our hearts and mind. It prepares us for overcoming lose in the future. It also honors what we lost, because if the impact is great enough than we should feel a deep and abiding sense of loss.

Even if we disagree that grief has a important purpose, I think it's verily clear that overcoming grief and moving on is a choice. Having someone else make that choice for you, then making you believe it was your choice all along is insidious at best and downright evil at worst. I find nothing justifiable with what PheonixJean did in HCT and I find it equally unacceptable what Charles did. This is exactly the kind of ends justify the means reasoning that cost Charles and eventually Scott, the respect of their peers. At least with PhoenixJean, a god complex is mildly earned. Not so in Charles case.

The ironic thing about how Charles presented his argument was that it reminded me uncannily of how Scott justified moving on beginning with M-Day and right up to the end. He accepted he had nothing personally left to live for, but also accepted that his personal happiness was irrelevant to his goal of mutant survival. For me, this isn't what the X-Men is about. Resilient hope in the face of unimaginable resistance is central to the narrative I love about these characters. These sorts of shortcuts cheapen that narrative to the point of irrelevance.

[ariwl1]

That's a rather beneficent interpretation of HCT but I do see a lot of parallels between the thrust of the two stories. The problem with these interpretations is that grieving is a natural and beneficial process. Hijacking the process is akin to drinking that magic elixer that will take all our pain away. As we all know, their is no true shortcut to coming to terms with any kind of loss. It doesn't work in real life and frankly it didn't work after HCT either in Scott's case. You can argue that grief is some kind of sickness that can justifiably be waved away with a magic wand but the process of accepting loss and finding meaning in life despite it, tempers our hearts and mind. It prepares us for overcoming lose in the future. It also honors what we lost, because if the impact is great enough than we should feel a deep and abiding sense of loss.

Even if we disagree that grief has a important purpose, I think it's verily clear that overcoming grief and moving on is a choice. Having someone else make that choice for you, then making you believe it was your choice all along is insidious at best and downright evil at worst. I find nothing justifiable with what PheonixJean did in HCT and I find it equally unacceptable what Charles did. This is exactly the kind of ends justify the means reasoning that cost Charles and eventually Scott, the respect of their peers. At least with PhoenixJean, a god complex is mildly earned. Not so in Charles case.

The ironic thing about how Charles presented his argument was that it reminded me uncannily of how Scott justified moving on beginning with M-Day and right up to the end. He accepted he had nothing personally left to live for, but also accepted that his personal happiness was irrelevant to his goal of mutant survival. For me, this isn't what the X-Men is about. Resilient hope in the face of unimaginable resistance is central to the narrative I love about these characters. These sorts of shortcuts cheapen that narrative to the point of irrelevance.

I actually don't necessarily disagree with any this. As I mentioned I didn't like the issue at all and was seeking a way to at least make it palatable. Going from "vomit inducing" to "can stomach it if you hold your nose" is about the most you could hope for in this situation.

Telepathy has been a busted power since the word go, so while it may not sit right that it can do these sort of things without consequences I generally don't dwell on it. Suspension of disbelief and such. And really I always read Jean's actions in HCT as preventing Scott from succumbing to grief rather than completely removing it. The many years of text since then demonstrated without question that Scott never truly got over Jean but was able to live life inspite of the grief over her death, something PhoenixJean could see would happen. Plus, she had the benefit of knowing that if Scott did leave the X-Men the world was going to go straight to hell. In a similar vein of thinking mourning can be truly fast-tracked, it's a bit silly to think the entire world is doomed because one man didn't do something, but comics be like that.

Now Charles...well he's got an established history of screwing with people's heads and it always coming across as distasteful.

[PsychoEFrost]

I actually don't necessarily disagree with any this. As I mentioned I didn't like the issue at all and was seeking a way to at least make it palatable. Going from "vomit inducing" to "can stomach it if you hold your nose" is about the most you could hope for in this situation.

Telepathy has been a busted power since the word go, so while it may not sit right that it can do these sort of things without consequences I generally don't dwell on it. Suspension of disbelief and such. And really I always read Jean's actions in HCT as preventing Scott from succumbing to grief rather than completely removing it. The many years of text since then demonstrated without question that Scott never truly got over Jean but was able to live life inspite of the grief over her death, something PhoenixJean could see would happen. Plus, she had the benefit of knowing that if Scott did leave the X-Men the world was going to go straight to hell. In a similar vein of thinking mourning can be truly fast-tracked, it's a bit silly to think the entire world is doomed because one man didn't do something, but comics be like that.

Now Charles...well he's got an established history of screwing with people's heads and it always coming across as distasteful.

Well... not always. In the very beginning of X-Men, Charles was a glorified radar device, and Jean was the rescue victim because girls. It wasn't until later that they steadily boosted the power of TP and TK, but the power never leveled off, instead rising at the meteoric rate it has until we get where we are today, where at least 3 telepaths are in the 10 most dangerous X-Men, and you can definitely argue for more.

[loke13]

Ok wow! Extermination was so good. I like that even though it's a book about the 05 it really gave other characters these Pretty cool moments. Cable, Rachel, and Jean all had pretty damn good emotional moments in this issue.

I also don't get the complaints that Jean didn't show enough emotion when it came to Cable's death. There's a difference between being emotionless and being in control of your emotions during a high-stress situation. She's arguably the most experience X-Men at the scene right now and I could definitely hear the anger in her voice when talking about finding Cable's killer and MAKING THEM PAY!!!

Also Jean Grey was drawn beautifully in this issue she exuded Poise, strength, and Authority.

[thechronic92]

I'm quite mad about the annual, it was boring and pretty useless. Just like PR.

Rosenberg claims to like Jean but so far his Jean has been unbelievably passive.

[loke13]

Rosenberg claims to like Jean but so far his Jean has been unbelievably passive.

I haven't read the annual and probably won't. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...