Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2018

[Ulfhammer]

I actually don't necessarily disagree with any this. As I mentioned I didn't like the issue at all and was seeking a way to at least make it palatable. Going from "vomit inducing" to "can stomach it if you hold your nose" is about the most you could hope for in this situation.

Ok, that's totally fair. I'm not sure I'm with you on being able to stomach it, but since we have no choice, I suppose your approach is a good one.

Telepathy has been a busted power since the word go, so while it may not sit right that it can do these sort of things without consequences I generally don't dwell on it. Suspension of disbelief and such. And really I always read Jean's actions in HCT as preventing Scott from succumbing to grief rather than completely removing it. The many years of text since then demonstrated without question that Scott never truly got over Jean but was able to live life inspite of the grief over her death, something PhoenixJean could see would happen. Plus, she had the benefit of knowing that if Scott did leave the X-Men the world was going to go straight to hell. In a similar vein of thinking mourning can be truly fast-tracked, it's a bit silly to think the entire world is doomed because one man didn't do something, but comics be like that.

Now Charles...well he's got an established history of screwing with people's heads and it always coming across as distasteful.

Honestly the mechanics of how these changes are accomplished are less important to me than the impact they have. HCT made Scott look like an a-hole, and no one will ever know the truth. If this ends up turning the o4 (I'm starting to hate that term BTW) towards making similar choices, I can't see how that's going to end well.

HCT was done to effect a status quo shift in the X-Line (Fall of Jean\Rise of Emma). I'm not sure what Charles did will have the same gravity but we'd be fools to think this was done for no reason at all.

[Ulfhammer]

Amen. And welcome back.

Thanks. Glad to know you're still around Fubar. So many have left, or were helped out the door in the last year.

[jollygoldfish]

As for what Phoenix is exactly when it's in the WHR, that's even less clear. All I can say for sure is that it tends to be drawn to look like Jean, with Jean's personality so draw what conclusions you like from that...

Lol that's true. It either looks like a fiery parrot or looks like Jean.

[spirit2011]

Ok, that's totally fair. I'm not sure I'm with you on being able to stomach it, but since we have no choice, I suppose your approach is a good one.



Honestly the mechanics of how these changes are accomplished are less important to me than the impact they have. HCT made Scott look like an a-hole, and no one will ever know the truth. If this ends up turning the o4 (I'm starting to hate that term BTW) towards making similar choices, I can't see how that's going to end well.

HCT was done to effect a status quo shift in the X-Line (Fall of Jean\Rise of Emma). I'm not sure what Charles did will have the same gravity but we'd be fools to think this was done for no reason at all.

I don't think it will have any major repercussions. we see that on Red Jean is fine and is possible on ethe reasons is the sugestion X gave her; Not big deal

[Disciple of Redd]

I see Astonishing Annual as more lazy "Xavier is evil" junk that gets repeated ad nauseum by writers that want to be hip really, really badly. It's not leading to anything new or cool. Just beating a dead horse that is already bad for the franchise.

Mopey, suicidal Jean isn't gonna do anything for me either.

This Rosenberg era is gonna be a "grimace and bear it" situation.

[Ulfhammer]

I don't think it will have any major repercussions. we see that on Red Jean is fine and is possible on ethe reasons is the sugestion X gave her; Not big deal

Are you sure? The sniff test for Jean in Extermination #1 just doesn't pass muster. Which one of the below characters appears to have just lost a son they raised for many years?

Was it Rachel?

Nope.

Was it Jeen?

Nope.

Was it Jean?

Bingo! There's our grieving mom.

Clearly Larraz knows how to draw emotionally compromised people. Jean doesn't appear so here. Rachel's way more effected and for some reason so is Jeen (and Tyke). Mama bear though, looks like she's contemplating where to order take out from. Brisson had to have signed off on these panels so I doubt it's a miscue. Jean's cold here. I'd post Jean's various reactions to the deaths of others in the past but the pic limit prevents me. Needless to say, there's no question what she's feeling. It's an OOC reaction for her, right when we find out Charles put the wammy on her and the rest of the o4.

[MechaJeanix]

You were saying?

From Avengers #6 - and that's definitely Phoenix related.

I haven't been keeping up with Avengers so I am not sure the context of the scan. Any idea what is going on or what Jean was feeling/sensing?

I hope they make some sort of connection with Jean and cave Phoenix.

Re: Phoenix discussion - I've said it a ton of times but I loved Grant Morrison's take on Jean and the Phoenix. He got it. The phoenix wasn't a cosmic trickster but seemed tied to evolution. Jean had an important role as White Phoenix and had a destiny. Even Rosenberg said on Twitter that White Phoenix was important but he didn't really touch it but to say that Jean had transcended when she was White Phoenix. Jean talked about being tired of playing God with Phoenix (which to me only makes sense in the context of White Phoenix of the crown).

I don't see Endsong so much as retconned but they just don't pull anything from it. Rosenberg said he re-read Endsong and Warsong when preparing for PR. I wish one day they would have Jean remember being White Phoenix and even HCT since it was referenced in Endsong. It will probably never happen. I'm ok either way. We the fans read those stories and we realize they are important to Jean Grey and her history.

[Strong Girl Daken]

Wow Jean seems to be the subject of never ending conspiracies. I read her reaction as detaching from the situation to keep her anger and pain in check so that she can unleash it on the killer.

[Havok83]

Wow Jean seems to be the subject of never ending conspiracies. I read her reaction as detaching from the situation to keep her anger and pain in check so that she can unleash it on the killer.

I didnt like her nonreaction at first and thought she was a bit detached, but it makes more sense reading it over. We already had Rachel as an emotional mess. The scene didnt need both of them like that. Jean was clearly affected as the dialogue stated. She's pissed and holding back bc she has a bigger mission now and its avenging her son

[phoenixzero23]

She swore revenge for Cable's death, that's enought for me. I don't know what other bigger or smaller reaction people expected.

[Ulfhammer]

Wow Jean seems to be the subject of never ending conspiracies. I read her reaction as detaching from the situation to keep her anger and pain in check so that she can unleash it on the killer.

Would totally make sense if it was at all consistent with her previous reactions. Jean's been a senior x-man for years, but generally reacts extremely emotionally to losing anyone. When it's someone close to her, her reactions tend to be over the top.

Here's one from just a few years ago from Jean's POV



Actually the reaction you described is exactly how I would expect Scott to react, but definitely not Jean. Look, we could easily chalk it up to a number of mundane explanations. It's just the timing of Charles screwing with Jean's emotions that made me think along these lines.

Also, conspiracies are what we do around here

[Havok83]

Would totally make sense if it was at all consistent with her previous reactions. Jean's been a senior x-man for years, but generally reacts extremely emotionally to losing anyone. When it's someone close to her, her reactions tend to be over the top.

Here's one from just a few years ago from Jean's POV



Actually the reaction you described is exactly how I would expect Scott to react, but definitely not Jean. Look, we could easily chalk it up to a number of mundane explanations. It's just the timing of Charles screwing with Jean's emotions that made me think along these lines.

Also, conspiracies are what we do around here

Well she died and just came back from the dead. Scott's dead. Xavier's dead. Logan is dead. It could be that she's just densitized to death now since she's retroactively had to deal with alot since her return

[Strong Girl Daken]

I didnt like her nonreaction at first and thought she was a bit detached, but it makes more sense reading it over. We already had Rachel as an emotional mess. The scene didnt need both of them like that. Jean was clearly affected as the dialogue stated. She's pissed and holding back bc she has a bigger mission now and its avenging her son

Yeah, the scene depicted different ways of expressing grief. "My son" stuck with me more than whatever Rachel said. Like, I'd be scared for Cable's murderer if I didn't know who it actually was lol.

[Ulfhammer]

Well she died and just came back from the dead. Scott's dead. Xavier's dead. Logan is dead. It could be that she's just densitized to death now since she's retroactively had to deal with alot since her return

You could be right but now I'm even more confused. Wasn't that exactly the condition that Charles was "treating" in the Astonishing Annual? So it didn't work? Or did it?

[Strong Girl Daken]

You could be right but now I'm even more confused. Wasn't that exactly the condition that Charles was "treating" in the Astonishing Annual? So it didn't work? Or did it?

Brisson probably doesn't care about that annual. Whatever happened in Astonishing only impacts things if you choose to see it that way or not.