Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2018

[WallStreeter]

The Phoenix stuff should not be brought up because the Phoenix stuff, canonically, did not happen. It was a simulation to teach the characters something. That is the premise of every Generations story. Those events did not happen except in the minds of the one character who was there for each of them. Jean should not be bringing up Phoenix memories because the Phoenix was not there and had nothing to do with it. Even if Jean does not know it was a simulation, in which case adult Jean bringing up the Phoenix could make sense in context, the writers and editors who should know what happened after their company's linewide event shouldn't be bringing up things to confuse people who actually follow their shared universe and post on forums because a core part of writing is clearly getting points across, especially when they're plot-based, not thematic or about character.

Canonically it did happen. I think some make fans due to issues of sexism hate seeing a female character defeat a powerful make character. Jean beat Galactus and beat four make Silver Surfers. Oh, the horror, Jean was written powerful and kicked ass. So there’s always a tendency from some male fans to come up with ridiculous excuses on why the powerful female character’s victory didn’t count.

[WallStreeter]

I think its already been seen. Red is her only spotlight book and the only place she's been allowed to shine. They seem to be downplaying her everywhere else she pops up. Extermination was probably her best showing outside of Red and thats only bc of teen Jean helping her at the end. I was disappointed in how useless her TP was prior not to mentionshe failed to use her TK effectively for minor things such as contain the two french kids

That’s because in part they add so many characters and they just wanted to use the French kids as a way of the adult o5 regaining the kid o5 memories. Storm could have struck the kids down with lightening or blown them away. Iceman could have frozen them in place. Domino could have knocked them out. I meant the whole thing was ridiculous. Same as the fight with XMan.

Oh, but Jean made no real attempt to fight Nate. They just want to rush a story to remake the XMen while revisiting the 90s.

[Havok83]

I really dont think Snoop Dogg was being sexist here. He dint buy it as canon for valid reasons which he stated which were the inconsistencies in the followup of Marvel and thats a rampant problem with editorial

That’s because in part they add so many characters and they just wanted to use the French kids as a way of the adult o5 regaining the kid o5 memories. Storm could have struck the kids down with lightening or blown them away. Iceman could have frozen them in place. Domino could have knocked them out. I meant the whole thing was ridiculous. Same as the fight with XMan.

Oh, but Jean made no real attempt to fight Nate. They just want to rush a story to remake the XMen while revisiting the 90s.

they made everyone look stupid which did the story a disservice. As a Jean fan, its embarssing to watch her written to be so incompetent. The stuff in Uncanny is especially bad

[Del torro]

Yeah... I don't snoop has any sexist views against Jeans. The Canonicity of Generations is up in the air, but I accept it as head canon.

What I miss about teen Jean is her spunk and attitude. I really got used to that. So it kinda feels tame when adult Jean is being all civilized. I miss the fire.
I don't mind Jean being a pacifist, but talking to every villain and begging them to stop is kind of getting tiring.
Especially in cases of Typhoid Mary or Cassandra Nova, where she can easily shut them down, but let's them get away because she doesn't want to fight, allowing them to control or kidnap more people.

I miss those moments of anger and emotion that made her seem so alive. Like when cable died or Rachel was Kidnapped.

[Del torro]

they made everyone look stupid which did the story a disservice. As a Jean fan, its embarssing to watch her written to be so incompetent. The stuff in Uncanny is especially bad

Lol, that's the trend these days. The X-men have to be incompetent to proceed

-Typhoid fever
Jean: Oh I've gotten into Mary's mind, but instead of putting her to sleep, let's try to have a therapy session and talk about her problems. Lol, I also have telekinesis that can stop the flow of blood from heart to brain and leave you unconscious, or a tk blast to the solar plexus to knock Mary out but I won't try any of that.

Iceman: HI, I'm Bobby Drake. I can freeze he'll or cities. Freeze every molecule in your body without touching you. Lower your body and put you to sleep from far, freeze the blood in your brain and knock you out. But lol, I'm going to try hand to hand combat and beat this telepath with icefists

Storm: hey, you know, I could stop Mary from breathing and knock her out, or scramble her brain or drop a lightning bolt on her or blow her away with an hurricane or flash freeze her. But I think it would be cooler if I entered her telepathy forcefield range and get mind controlled.

-Return of Wolverine

Wow, civilians are attacking us, what are we gonna do. They've surrounded us despite the fact that we can fly, teleport and phase Omg what are we gonna do. Also they have tear gas. If only we had two mutants on our team that could disperse or condense and freeze gas, if only someone here could create force fields. Also, Jeans telepathy isn't working again.

-Uncanny X-Men

Betsy: I have forgotten that I can make telekinetic shields or that I can fly, also I can't stop civilians when they are like super mad.

Storm: when fighting an army, it is always best to dive right in and fight hand to hand while ignoring your other powers

Polaris: apparently I can't use my forcefields and civilians are my greatest weakness. Anyway, I'm just glad I'm no longer wallpaper. Oh wait.

Nate grey: Cable diddle for this

Jean: X-Men Red didn't die for this

[ariwl1]

What I miss about teen Jean is her spunk and attitude. I really got used to that. So it kinda feels tame when adult Jean is being all civilized. I miss the fire.
I don't mind Jean being a pacifist, but talking to every villain and begging them to stop is kind of getting tiring.
Especially in cases of Typhoid Mary or Cassandra Nova, where she can easily shut them down, but let's them get away because she doesn't want to fight, allowing them to control or kidnap more people.

I miss those moments of anger and emotion that made her seem so alive. Like when cable died or Rachel was Kidnapped.

I think this speaks to something of a catch 22 when it comes to Jean. If you ask many a fan what they like about her her passion usually comes up within two to three sentences. And the fun thing about Jean is that she embodies both extremes of that. Few people are as dedicated and caring for others in the x-mythos as her, but she also has quite possibly the worst temper. Jean fans often like it very much when she loses her temper, as she's often afforded the privilege of being right/opposing someone very deserving of an ass-whoopin' when she does, but it's also gotten her into trouble plenty of times as well.

Having such a temper IS a character flaw so it could be grounds for character growth with Jean learning to manage it. If I were being optimistic using the current stories of Jean not being as aggressive as in the past but realizing she's over-correcting into a state of ineffectual passivity could make for a good arc...but that's probably not what's happening...

[Del torro]

I think this speaks to something of a catch 22 when it comes to Jean. If you ask many a fan what they like about her her passion usually comes up within two to three sentences. And the fun thing about Jean is that she embodies both extremes of that. Few people are as dedicated and caring for others in the x-mythos as her, but she also has quite possibly the worst temper. Jean fans often like it very much when she loses her temper, as she's often afforded the privilege of being right/opposing someone very deserving of an ass-whoopin' when she does, but it's also gotten her into trouble plenty of times as well.

Having such a temper IS a character flaw so it could be grounds for character growth with Jean learning to manage it. If I were being optimistic using the current stories of Jean not being as aggressive as in the past but realizing she's over-correcting into a state of ineffectual passivity could make for a good arc...but that's probably not what's happening...

I would be fine with such an arc as described in your last paragraph. But, I fear about Jean being seen as a perfect "Mary sue" I who is always right and can do no wrong, if they take away her major flaw. Like how some Laura fans complain about Taylor removing all of lauras flaws and personal challenges to make her a perfect messiah figure.

I think there's a way things can be balanced, with her flaws being present /handled and her still being shown as one of the teams moral compasses/do gooders.

[WallStreeter]

I think this speaks to something of a catch 22 when it comes to Jean. If you ask many a fan what they like about her her passion usually comes up within two to three sentences. And the fun thing about Jean is that she embodies both extremes of that. Few people are as dedicated and caring for others in the x-mythos as her, but she also has quite possibly the worst temper. Jean fans often like it very much when she loses her temper, as she's often afforded the privilege of being right/opposing someone very deserving of an ass-whoopin' when she does, but it's also gotten her into trouble plenty of times as well.

Having such a temper IS a character flaw so it could be grounds for character growth with Jean learning to manage it. If I were being optimistic using the current stories of Jean not being as aggressive as in the past but realizing she's over-correcting into a state of ineffectual passivity could make for a good arc...but that's probably not what's happening...

Why is why I liked Jean as Phoenix. She had her temper and it was scary if she got mad. Even in the 90s, on the few occasions Jean got pissed people feared the return of Dark Phoenix. People even feared Jeen going off, as it could signal the return of the Dark Phoenix.

Giving her the Phoenix as the darker side of Hean that she must struggle to control/keep in touch makes her interesting. Writing her as very powerful but always in therapist mode is pretty horrible. Even Cassandra Nova she avoided fighting and put empathy in her mind. Jean is likely giving her therapy sessions. Is there anyone Jean will fight? She just uses her powers defensively and no version of Jean has ever been this pacifist. Even the early Marvel Girl and the 90s pre Phoenix cartoon Jean were more willing to fight/more aggressive.

[WallStreeter]

I really dont think Snoop Dogg was being sexist here. He dint buy it as canon for valid reasons which he stated which were the inconsistencies in the followup of Marvel and thats a rampant problem with editorial



they made everyone look stupid which did the story a disservice. As a Jean fan, its embarssing to watch her written to be so incompetent. The stuff in Uncanny is especially bad

Trying to insist Jean is only this pacifist therapist and trying to eliminate any moments of aggression or competence she had is very misogynistic. The fans who try to argue she never had anything to do with the Phoenix (despite clearly being Phoenix in the early 2000s and despite characters at that point referring to her as Phoenix and the original Phoenix).

I don’t think anyone can argue a Jean Grey who always refuses to fight, no matter what the stakes are, is a good depiction. Realistically this is done because the harsher aspects her are associated with the Phoenix, and clearly Adult Jean
Has suffered from severing it from her as she must act like a complete pacifist to prove the Phoenix is gone.

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

Trying to insist Jean is only this pacifist therapist and trying to eliminate any moments of aggression or competence she had is very misogynistic. The fans who try to argue she never had anything to do with the Phoenix (despite clearly being Phoenix in the early 2000s and despite characters at that point referring to her as Phoenix and the original Phoenix).

I don’t think anyone can argue a Jean Grey who always refuses to fight, no matter what the stakes are, is a good depiction. Realistically this is done because the harsher aspects her are associated with the Phoenix, and clearly Adult Jean
Has suffered from severing it from her as she must act like a complete pacifist to prove the Phoenix is gone.

I feel like Jean right now is really an idealist and wants everything to work out, and after she's been back for a couple years she's going to not be that way so much.

[WallStreeter]

I think this speaks to something of a catch 22 when it comes to Jean. If you ask many a fan what they like about her her passion usually comes up within two to three sentences. And the fun thing about Jean is that she embodies both extremes of that. Few people are as dedicated and caring for others in the x-mythos as her, but she also has quite possibly the worst temper. Jean fans often like it very much when she loses her temper, as she's often afforded the privilege of being right/opposing someone very deserving of an ass-whoopin' when she does, but it's also gotten her into trouble plenty of times as well.

Having such a temper IS a character flaw so it could be grounds for character growth with Jean learning to manage it. If I were being optimistic using the current stories of Jean not being as aggressive as in the past but realizing she's over-correcting into a state of ineffectual passivity could make for a good arc...but that's probably not what's happening...

Why is why I liked Jean as Phoenix. She had her temper and it was scary if she got mad. Even in the 90s, on the few occasions Jean got pissed people feared the return of Dark Phoenix. People even feared Jeen going off, as it could signal the return of the Dark Phoenix.

Giving her the Phoenix as the darker side of Hean that she must struggle to control/keep in touch makes her interesting. Writing her as very powerful but always in therapist mode is pretty horrible. Even Cassandra Nova she avoided fighting and put empathy in her mind. Jean is likely giving her therapy sessions. Is there anyone Jean will fight? She just uses her powers defensively and no version of Jean has ever been this pacifist. Even the early Marvel Girl and the 90s pre Phoenix cartoon Jean were more willing to fight/more aggressive.

[WallStreeter]

I feel like Jean right now is really an idealist and wants everything to work out, and after she's been back for a couple years she's going to not be that way so much.

If the writers intend to address this soon, great. Maybe Age if XMen ends in such away where Jean realizes its sometimes better to be feared that liked. Typhoid Mary for example is not a brave character and had Jean showed up in the Phoenix costume manifesting either the Phoenix effect or even Jeen’s pink form she would have backed down. Magneto himself has backed down from Jeen’s pink form.

Look at Magik. The Inhumans and Avengers fear her. She’s friends with Dr. Strange, her mentor, the Scarlet Witch, and Dr. Voodoo. Magik gets the job done.

I don’t want Jean to be friends with Iron Man or Cap. I think the shadier Avengers would respect her and like the Scarlet Witch, Namor, Thor, Black Panther, or Captain Marvel.

But I don’t expect the typical Avenger to want to be around Jean. She’s scary in many ways. The XMen as her family know the hood side of her better and so of course can interact with a better. As plain Jean or as the Phoenix Jean has repeatedly saved the XMen and Mutants in general and tbe XNen should not have a problem with someone or something that has saved their butts repeatedly.

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

If the writers intend to address this soon, great. Maybe Age if XMen ends in such away where Jean realizes its sometimes better to be feared that liked. Typhoid Mary for example is not a brave character and had Jean showed up in the Phoenix costume manifesting either the Phoenix effect or even Jeen’s pink form she would have backed down. Magneto himself has backed down from Jeen’s pink form.

Look at Magik. The Inhumans and Avengers fear her. She’s friends with Dr. Strange, her mentor, the Scarlet Witch, and Dr. Voodoo. Magik gets the job done.

I don’t want Jean to be friends with Iron Man or Cap. I think the shadier Avengers would respect her and like the Scarlet Witch, Namor, Thor, Black Panther, or Captain Marvel.

But I don’t expect the typical Avenger to want to be around Jean. She’s scary in many ways. The XMen as her family know the hood side of her better and so of course can interact with a better. As plain Jean or as the Phoenix Jean has repeatedly saved the XMen and Mutants in general and tbe XNen should not have a problem with someone or something that has saved their butts repeatedly.

I wouldn't say better to be feared or liked, but that sometimes you can't win, just try not to lose, and violence sometimes IS the only answer.

[Strong Girl Daken]

Jean still has a temper. It was showcased in the Red Annual.

[Del torro]

If the writers intend to address this soon, great. Maybe Age if XMen ends in such away where Jean realizes its sometimes better to be feared that liked. Typhoid Mary for example is not a brave character and had Jean showed up in the Phoenix costume manifesting either the Phoenix effect or even Jeen’s pink form she would have backed down. Magneto himself has backed down from Jeen’s pink form.

Look at Magik. The Inhumans and Avengers fear her. She’s friends with Dr. Strange, her mentor, the Scarlet Witch, and Dr. Voodoo. Magik gets the job done.

I don’t want Jean to be friends with Iron Man or Cap. I think the shadier Avengers would respect her and like the Scarlet Witch, Namor, Thor, Black Panther, or Captain Marvel.

But I don’t expect the typical Avenger to want to be around Jean. She’s scary in many ways. The XMen as her family know the hood side of her better and so of course can interact with a better. As plain Jean or as the Phoenix Jean has repeatedly saved the XMen and Mutants in general and tbe XNen should not have a problem with someone or something that has saved their butts repeatedly.

Eh, I think that's a bit much. I like her having friends in avengers, but them knowing or finding out that she has a dark side that they have to be wary of.