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  1. #76
    Peter Scott SpiderClops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    It was interesting that editorial pulled that move. Death in comics tends to not hold very much weight. If an important character dies, there's a good chance we'll see them alive again at some point, and for many novice Marvel readers, Jean personified this. So it was a massive subversion of expectation to have her death go on as long as it did (with the caveat that she was obviously pulling a few strings from the WHR).



    There are two theories for that.

    1) Jean was the heart of the X-Men, and losing her made everyone else lose their way, leading into the eventual Schism.

    2) The interpersonal problems of the team were too severe, and Jean was the only one who managed to keep things level.

    Either way, hard not to say that her being gone only made the interpersonal problems of the team worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    I can't imagine how some of the stories that happened in her abscense would have gone if Jean was there. Some of them (like schism or AvX or the whole deal with hope) probably wouldn't have happened at all.
    or marvel could have butchered her character in a horrible way to made them work.

    I just can't imagine Jean in a dumb hero vs hero event or bad schisms. she is smarter than that
    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    I definitely think Schism would never have happened if she were alive. I cant see her allowing things to get that hateful between Cyclops and Wolverine to the point where the X-men and school split up
    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Schism absolutely never would have happened in the way that they represented it, not at all. It may have happened in another way, though, since Cyclops might have downward spiraled into his Magneto mentality either way.

    I used to imagine that there might be a schism between Jean and Scott where Jean took a more Charles inspired stance but didn't do the hypocritical thing of saying not to allow any children to fight while continuing to fight herself like Logan did.
    Yeah... no. Schism most definitely would've happened. Why? Because Marvel was in full 'hero vs. hero' mode. It was the hot thing at that time. It doesn't matter who was alive or not, Schism would've happened no doubt about it. If they can made Spider-Man sell his marriage to the devil, you think they would've cared if Jean is being in-character or not?

    There are few other things I won't mention because this is Jean appreciation thread.

  2. #77
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    Yeah... no. Schism most definitely would've happened. Why? Because Marvel was in full 'hero vs. hero' mode. It was the hot thing at that time. It doesn't matter who was alive or not, Schism would've happened no doubt about it. If they can made Spider-Man sell his marriage to the devil, you think they would've cared if Jean is being in-character or not?

    There are few other things I won't mention because this is Jean appreciation thread.
    This is an appreciation thread and the discussion is hypothetical about something that may have made sense. It doesn't have a thing to do with editorial.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  3. #78
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    Yeah... no. Schism most definitely would've happened. Why? Because Marvel was in full 'hero vs. hero' mode. It was the hot thing at that time. It doesn't matter who was alive or not, Schism would've happened no doubt about it. If they can made Spider-Man sell his marriage to the devil, you think they would've cared if Jean is being in-character or not?

    There are few other things I won't mention because this is Jean appreciation thread.
    Pretty sure people are talking from an in-story perspective rather than a meta one? Jean herself said on panel that she thinks the whole hero vs hero **** is stupid. Yeah, Marvel probably would have involved her anyway, but since that wasn't the case there's nothing that really invalidates this idea right now.

  4. #79
    Peter Scott SpiderClops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    This is an appreciation thread and the discussion is hypothetical about something that may have made sense. It doesn't have a thing to do with editorial.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Pretty sure people are talking from an in-story perspective rather than a meta one? Jean herself said on panel that she thinks the whole hero vs hero **** is stupid. Yeah, Marvel probably would have involved her anyway, but since that wasn't the case there's nothing that really invalidates this idea right now.
    Ok, did you guys first thought how the original version would've went without editorial mandate? Half the crap in comics wouldn't happen if we remove editorial mandate(the bad and the good).

    And no hero 'likes' hero vs. hero nonsense. But they have to get into that for various reasons(in-universe or real). I don't like this kind of thing coming out from the mouth of characters who weren't present at that time, when we very well know that they wouldn't have been able to make a lick of a difference.

  5. #80
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    Hero vs Hero is inevitable. Specially if each has their own ideas of addressing issues, and with each character gaining perspectives as they grow and get exposed to things happening around them. Changing priorities etc. If jean never died, and there is conflict amount X-Men she would probably be on neutral ground and battle the other 2 clashing.

  6. #81
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    Yeah... no. Schism most definitely would've happened. Why? Because Marvel was in full 'hero vs. hero' mode. It was the hot thing at that time. It doesn't matter who was alive or not, Schism would've happened no doubt about it. If they can made Spider-Man sell his marriage to the devil, you think they would've cared if Jean is being in-character or not?

    There are few other things I won't mention because this is Jean appreciation thread.
    Jeez, we are talking in hypotheticals. Its no different when Cyclops fans say that Extermination would never happen if Cyclops was around. Obviously if editorial says so, then yeah it would. We were all deprived of Jean for 14 years. All we can do is speculate about what would happen in comic if she were around bc without a What If story, all we have is our imaginations

  7. #82
    Astonishing Member 5cents's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    AXM Annual preview. Jean talks about her meeting with the younger Jean. Im guessing this is the most we are gonna get out of that Jean Grey #11 finale

    http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...-men-annual-1/
    This reminds me of X-Factor when Jean came back and brought the O5 back together as a team. Maybe Jean helps bring back another X-Factor book or even the Uncanny one.
    First X-Lady

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    Yeah... no. Schism most definitely would've happened. Why? Because Marvel was in full 'hero vs. hero' mode. It was the hot thing at that time. It doesn't matter who was alive or not, Schism would've happened no doubt about it. If they can made Spider-Man sell his marriage to the devil, you think they would've cared if Jean is being in-character or not?

    There are few other things I won't mention because this is Jean appreciation thread.
    Given Marvel editorial and marketing's mindset at the time, they probably would've had Jean side with Logan against Scott to maximize drama and conflict.

    Now, were she written in-character, Schism would've only lasted a few panels. As soon as Scott and Logan started physically fighting, Jean would have stepped between them, telekinetically smacked them both down, and chewed their asses out for acting like a couple of 6-year-olds throwing a tantrum.

  9. #84
    Mighty Member JeisonWolf's Avatar
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    Many stories wouldn't happen if the characters stayed true to themselves. for example AvX. If Jean had been alive during Schism and Jean was Jean without any change, it is possible that she had tried to avoid it. But the most likely thing is that Jean took a side. The side of Scott because he was her husband or ex-husband and she still loves him or just agrees with his ideology. the side of Logan because she is fighting with Scott and decides to go against him, she and Scott have been divorced and now she is with Logan, or simply because she agrees with Logan's ideology. or his own side, where possibly Schism wouldn't be Scott vs Logan if not Scott vs Jean(but this last one would have been almost like a dispute of couples that really would have turned it into a telenovela and not so much an ideological dispute).

  10. #85
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeisonWolf View Post
    Many stories wouldn't happen if the characters stayed true to themselves. for example AvX. If Jean had been alive during Schism and Jean was Jean without any change, it is possible that she had tried to avoid it. But the most likely thing is that Jean took a side. The side of Scott because he was her husband or ex-husband and she still loves him or just agrees with his ideology. the side of Logan because she is fighting with Scott and decides to go against him, she and Scott have been divorced and now she is with Logan, or simply because she agrees with Logan's ideology. or his own side, where possibly Schism wouldn't be Scott vs Logan if not Scott vs Jean(but this last one would have been almost like a dispute of couples that really would have turned it into a telenovela and not so much an ideological dispute).
    IF Jean had to pick a side, I think she would have taken on the role that Storm did and that would be to keep an eye on Scott and keep him in line. He trusted Storm to be a checks and balance of sorts, and I think he'd trust Jean for the same. BUT Scott was with Emma at the time so I definitely couldnt have seen her working that close with either of them while they were still in a relationship. It wouldnt have been healthy.

  11. #86
    Peter Scott SpiderClops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    Given Marvel editorial and marketing's mindset at the time, they probably would've had Jean side with Logan against Scott to maximize drama and conflict.

    Now, were she written in-character, Schism would've only lasted a few panels. As soon as Scott and Logan started physically fighting, Jean would have stepped between them, telekinetically smacked them both down, and chewed their asses out for acting like a couple of 6-year-olds throwing a tantrum.
    I don't thing even in-character Jean would've been able to stop Schism. This hypothetical scenario is more complex than some might believe, with many variables we're not taking into account, but I digress.

  12. #87
    Mighty Member JeisonWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    IF Jean had to pick a side, I think she would have taken on the role that Storm did and that would be to keep an eye on Scott and keep him in line. He trusted Storm to be a checks and balance of sorts, and I think he'd trust Jean for the same. BUT Scott was with Emma at the time so I definitely couldnt have seen her working that close with either of them while they were still in a relationship. It wouldnt have been healthy.
    Well if Jean hadn't died maybe Scott and Emma wouldn't have been together, maybe Jean and Scott were still married or maybe divorced, Scott was with Emma and Jean with Logan or any other character, maybe they got over it and they're friends again, or maybe they're not able to look at each other or talk to each other. The truth is that if we imagine, what if? There are many possibilities and variants.
    Last edited by JeisonWolf; 08-10-2018 at 10:24 AM.

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member 5cents's Avatar
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    The only thing I kinda regret about Jean’s decade away is Mike Carey not getting to write her and Mike Choi drawing her. Carey always seemed to like Jean. I think that’s why her statue keep popping up in No More Humans.

    But I am glad she missed the Fraction era and the Greg Land oh faces.
    First X-Lady

  14. #89
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    If we're moving to "What would editorial do?" I imagine something like Jean siding with Logan, getting together with him, and the tone for the franchise would become kind of a Jean/Logan vs Scemma thing, but actually all about Jean/Scott angst on a more subtle way.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5cents View Post
    The only thing I kinda regret about Jean’s decade away is Mike Carey not getting to write her and Mike Choi drawing her. Carey always seemed to like Jean. I think that’s why her statue keep popping up in No More Humans.
    I'm convinced he intended for Hope to be Jean reincarnated but that editorial pre-empted that idea after he left the franchise. So, he did get to write Jean...in a way.

    But I am glad she missed the Fraction era and the Greg Land oh faces.
    Had Scott and Jean still been together when Fraction came onboard, I honestly don't think his take on her and their relationship would've been too far off from what we got with Emma. By that point, Emma was mostly just functioning as a Jean substitute anyway--Scott's other half, lead telepath, and team mom. Subtract the snark and snotty attitude, and even a lot of the dialogue could've stayed the same.

    The only major plot difference would've been Emma's role in Dark Reign.

    Greg Land got to draw Jean in Endsong.

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