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  1. #91
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Catwoman is one of DC's top female characters, but she has never been at the level Harley is at now and Ivy will never be on this level because she isn't that type of character. I'd say only Catwoman would fit in the femme fatal category and I don't think I've heard anyone describe Ivy or Harley as that before. I don't really see how Catwoman and Ivy would really change things from Canary or Huntress too. All are generally written and portrayed as fairly serious characters and in both groups Harley would be he crazy over the top scene stealer. So the dynamics would be exactly the same but the only difference would be that Harley actually has a history and a connection with Catwoman and Ivy and fits with them more as villains. If anything a character like Catwoman would be a better character bounce off of because the audience knows her more and she is more established. So the dynamic between the two would be more even and there is less of a threat of Harley dominating everything and bullying them like with the BoP cast. It could be like the Deadpool and Wolverine relationship.
    It's kind of hard not to describe Ivy as a Femme Fatale considering one of her main character traits is her sex appeal and seducing people with it (and her pheromones).

    I mean, her first appearance in BTAS had her romancing Harvey Dent just to poison him.

  2. #92
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It's kind of hard not to describe Ivy as a Femme Fatale considering one of her main character traits is her sex appeal and seducing people with it (and her pheromones).

    I mean, her first appearance in BTAS had her romancing Harvey Dent just to poison him.
    I guess Ivy is too much of a fantasy character me to think of her as a femme fatal in the traditional sense. Also femme fatals are usually selfish and Ivy's whole motivation is about helping nature and the environment to a crazy degree rather than just something for herself, but I can see how others would look at her differently.

  3. #93
    Astonishing Member BatmanJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    I don't think Black Canary is all that recognisable. She has a very generic look. Arrow is on its third Black Canary.
    Sad but true.

    To the ones that suggested the film would be diverse enough without mixed race Dinah, how many decades of racism are we finally starting to account for? I'd be fine if no DC character was white for the next 40 years. That would begin to feel like reparations to correct for the sort of racism that made virtually every comic character from the 40s to the 80s(!!!) white and straight, with the vast majority of the heroes male.

    But we're just talking about mixed race (probably half white) Dinah? That is so not a big deal. I still hope she wears the blonde wig because I like it when the movies reflect the comics and it's mostly been a wig in the comics anyway. Dinah Lance does not need to be white to be accurate. We need SO many more heroes of color than we have and it will never happen with new characters alone.

  4. #94
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    But we're just talking about mixed race (probably half white) Dinah? That is so not a big deal. I still hope she wears the blonde wig because I like it when the movies reflect the comics and it's mostly been a wig in the comics anyway. Dinah Lance does not need to be white to be accurate. We need SO many more heroes of color than we have and it will never happen with new characters alone.
    Actually, I think by this point in the comics it's been more dyed or natural then a wig.

  5. #95
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    Sad but true.

    To the ones that suggested the film would be diverse enough without mixed race Dinah, how many decades of racism are we finally starting to account for? I'd be fine if no DC character was white for the next 40 years. That would begin to feel like reparations to correct for the sort of racism that made virtually every comic character from the 40s to the 80s(!!!) white and straight, with the vast majority of the heroes male.

    But we're just talking about mixed race (probably half white) Dinah? That is so not a big deal. I still hope she wears the blonde wig because I like it when the movies reflect the comics and it's mostly been a wig in the comics anyway. Dinah Lance does not need to be white to be accurate. We need SO many more heroes of color than we have and it will never happen with new characters alone.
    But it feels like the reason they are looking to cast a non white Black Canary is because they don't want two blonde white women in the movie in leading roles since they already have Harley as a blonde and white "hero" on the team. So already because Harley is on the BoP team they have to change a character like Canary to facilitate Harley more. It would make much more sense to cast a biracial actress for Huntress given that in the New 52 they already redesigned her to look more darker skinned compared to her pre-New 52 self.

  6. #96
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    To the ones that suggested the film would be diverse enough without mixed race Dinah, how many decades of racism are we finally starting to account for? I'd be fine if no DC character was white for the next 40 years. That would begin to feel like reparations to correct for the sort of racism that made virtually every comic character from the 40s to the 80s(!!!) white and straight, with the vast majority of the heroes male.
    Interesting. I will address your point only once and you can of course feel free to make of my comment what you will.

    Do I think it should be necessary for a fictional white woman with blonde hair to remain a white woman with blonde hair, whatever the circumstances? No, I don't. Do I think it should be seen as a problem if she does stay white and blonde, whatever the circumstances? No, I don't. Would you see me express any form of racial or gender-based resentment whenever white comic book characters are changed from their original portrayal? No, you won't. Would you see me express any form of shame or collective guilt over things that neither me, nor my family's history were ever associated with? No, you won't.

    Now, can we please go back to our regularly scheduled geek program.
    Last edited by Johnny; 08-11-2018 at 05:58 PM.

  7. #97
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    A more pertinent question...will she sport fishnets ?

  8. #98
    Astonishing Member BatmanJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Interesting. I will address your point only once and you can of course feel free to make of my comment what you will.

    Do I think it should be necessary for a fictional white woman with blonde hair to remain a white woman with blonde hair, whatever the circumstances? No, I don't. Do I think it should be seen as a problem if she does stay white and blonde, whatever the circumstances? No, I don't. Would you see me express any form of racial or gender-based resentment whenever white comic book characters are changed from their original portrayal? No, you won't. Would you see me express any form of shame or collective guilt over things that neither me, nor my family's history were ever associated with? No, you won't.

    Now, can we please go back to our regularly scheduled geek program.
    I don't disagree with any of your points. And I don't mind if she's played by a blonde white actress as would be traditional (I dated myself with 'she's mostly worn a wig' apparently). I'm not actually on a crusade. Just feel like there's a lot of catching up to be done.

  9. #99
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    A more pertinent question...will she sport fishnets ?
    She'll probably have them tattooed on or something dumb like that.

    I really wonder why they are going in with specifics of half something. Seems weird to me, just test actors and whoever is the best fit cast them.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

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  10. #100
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    A more pertinent question...will she sport fishnets?
    These reports about them looking for an actress with singing capabilities makes me think they are taking their cue from her New 52 solo. So maybe that BDSM themed costume?




    My personal favorite is her classic costume with the blue jacket. Thought all the various animated shows did a good job translating it on screen.


  11. #101
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    And Harley has never been part of the BoP franchise. So how can you say it is losing relevance without her?
    Heh, I said it was losing relevance even without her, not because it did not have her. A large part of that has been due to the loss of Oracle, but if they are insistent on not having Oracle, then they have nothing to lose by trying to see if including Harley does the book any favors.


    Harley crushes all of them in terms of fanart, cosplay, and merch sales. I think you believe that Harley is only where she is because of her use in the SS movie, but she was a major merch seller long before the movie came out and her comic was doing extremely well before the movie came out too. The recent Harley Renaissance has been going on since the Arkham games where she was a mascot for them, imo. The movie has only added to it where DC now looks at her and even calls her their "Fourth Pillar" on the level of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman.

    Catwoman is one of DC's top female characters, but she has never been at the level Harley is at now and Ivy will never be on this level because she isn't that type of character. I'd say only Catwoman would fit in the femme fatal category and I don't think I've heard anyone describe Ivy or Harley as that before. I don't really see how Catwoman and Ivy would really change things from Canary or Huntress too. All are generally written and portrayed as fairly serious characters and in both groups Harley would be he crazy over the top scene stealer. So the dynamics would be exactly the same but the only difference would be that Harley actually has a history and a connection with Catwoman and Ivy and fits with them more as villains. If anything a character like Catwoman would be a better character bounce off of because the audience knows her more and she is more established. So the dynamic between the two would be more even and there is less of a threat of Harley dominating everything and bullying them like with the BoP cast. It could be like the Deadpool and Wolverine relationship.
    Okay, the Arkham games were the turning point for the Harley Renaissance. But even that's fairly recent. And wasn't Catwoman a big deal in the 60's due to the tv show? To the point when by the time they were casting for the role some 25 years later for Returns, actresses were competing for it on cut-throat levels. That Sean Young lady's antics to be cast as Catwoman were legendary. Even when Harley was being cast in Squad, there was no such flurry of activity, so I still think Selina is more renowned than Harley.

    I don't know what "type of character" you mean Ivy isn't to become a huge breakout. A gorgeous woman with goddess like capabilities? Game of Thrones' Mother of Dragons and Frozen's Elsa show it can be incredibly popular. A woman fighting for a cause greater than herself? The Hunger Games' Katniss Everdeen and of course, Wonder Woman herself. Add to that Ivy's more sensual than any of these characters, so she will have more straight male fans as well.

    Also if they were actually making a Sirens movie with Harley, Catwoman and Ivy and there was zero mention of a Harley lead BoP movie you would be praising it. Saying how great an idea it is and are excited to see it. So it is tough to argue with you about a Sirens movie when you would be excited for it if they were making one.
    Maybe, but I kind of always knew a Sirens movie would have to be a compromise for Catwoman and Ivy fans as long as Margot Robbie was calling the shots. Look at how Cable was treated in Ryan Reynolds' Deadpool 2 for example. Not the worst depiction by a mile, but it was a muted portrayal built to serve Deadpool's own character better.

    In that sense, I'm okay with whoever Harley's peers are. As long as the movie is entertaining and does some justice to the other characters.

  12. #102
    Reader of Stuff Hilden B. Lade's Avatar
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    I have no real problems with a mixed-race Black Canary. Besides, a non-white Black Canary doesn't mean she can't be blonde. I mean, she wasn't even a natural blonde in the comics until the New 52 retconned her to be one as far as I recall, so what's to stop them from putting movie Black Canary in a wig or dye-job if a non-white actress gets the part? :P

    At the end of the day, I'd want to have an actress who does the character justice and doesn't look like the comics, rather than a character who looks like the comics but doesn't do the character justice.

  13. #103
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Well, the DCEU did give HQ an even bigger push. Still, those numbers for Selina and Ivy are pretty huge (especially for Ivy who hasn't really received widespread exposure since Batman and Robin more than 20 years ago, and the lesser said about that...). Those numbers are probably much bigger than the numbers for the Birds of Prey rumored to be featured in the film. Also, Catwoman and Poison Ivy are Halloween costume/collectible sales juggernauts.
    Not that huge, really. Deviantart is a festering cesspool of sexism; Power Girl gets staggering 310,000 hits, blowing even Wonder Woman out of the water (she's at 150,000, about the same as Harley Quinn). And half of Poison Ivy's AO3 presences are in stories where she's together with Harley Quinn. Compared to Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy's small fish. One could possibly argue that a lot of Poison Ivy's popularity today comes from her connection with Harley Quinn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Again, the Margot Robbie version has blurred the line and has connected the sexy and evil parts. In that sense, Catwoman and Ivy are arguably more appealing to women in a post #MeToo world as they are sexy but don't let their sexiness commodified for one man in particular. Also, Ivy has the environmental theme which will always keep her at the forefront of relevance. Selina is too much of a pop culture icon to be irrelevant at this point.
    I think it's more that Margot Robbie downplayed the fun aspect with Harley Quinn. Her Harley is more bad AND sexy, not sexy because she is bad, as was the case for Poison Ivy and Catwoman when they were created.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    I think people haven't rewatched the original Harley and Ivy episode in a long time. Ivy gets the best lines and arguably steals the episode from Harley. If they had faithfully just recreated that episode then I reckon the Ivy actress would've been received on an equal footing as Robbie, if not flat out overshadowed her.
    On the other hand, that Harley Quinn was at an entirely different stage of her development: she was clearly dependant on the Joker and his "approval" at all times. Poison Ivy isn't scenery-chewing as much as trying to play the big sister and build up Harley's personality and self-esteem again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Catwoman is a strange one as even in Sirens she always felt like a third wheel, even if her teaming up with the crazier duo allowed for some interesting dynamics.
    I think that's mostly due to the way that Harley and Poison Ivy are in a relationship. Now, is it possible that Margot Robbie doesn't want to play a woman in a lesbian relationship? No idea, but merely asking the question doesn't look good for her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    Instead of being tied in with Harley Quinn as just a supporting character perhaps it is time for Catwoman to get a legitimate Catwoman movie of her own, featuring Selina Kyle as Catwoman. If they model Catwoman after the Catwoman in The Dark Knight Rises and make it a street level caper movie instead of a CGI heavy superhero movie they could probably make it for a reasonable amount of money and it would probably be a more interesting story. Something along the lines of the mini-series Selina's Big Score.
    Yeah, and it'd arguably be a lot more interesting than the zillion Joker movies they are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I guess Ivy is too much of a fantasy character me to think of her as a femme fatal in the traditional sense. Also femme fatals are usually selfish and Ivy's whole motivation is about helping nature and the environment to a crazy degree rather than just something for herself, but I can see how others would look at her differently.
    Modern Poison Ivy definitely is a femme fatale, she goes back to one of the oldest one in the book: Circe. But a lot of people associate the term femme fatale with the noir movement and mystery novels nowadays, and that's where Catwoman originated. But as far as I understand it, Poison Ivy started out a lot closer to that model as well.

  14. #104
    Fantastic Member The_Lurk's Avatar
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    For me personally it ain't such a big deal; while I am a stickler of accurate character portrayal and I do like BC I'm not really a big fan of her enough to get riled up about it. But I do think its insulting to the actual fans of the character if they go for diversity for the sake of diversity. If they don't want to portray a 2nd "white blonde" (because.. they are all alike?) character they simply should not pick a 2nd white blonde character. Add Thunder or Vixen instead. Wasn't there a female latina Wildcat pre-crisis? Pick her. There are good options to pick from which would actually be quite interesting to see in a big budget movie.

  15. #105
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    "Course corrected" lmao

    It's all a matter of opinion, but there are masses of people who feel they were never off course to begin with...

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