DC/WB Films/Worlds (No Spoilers)

[Krypto's Fleas]

If you ask me, I'd say WB saved themselves the loss of tens of millions of dollars by stopping Snyder in his tracks. He can't even explain what he wanted to do with any real coherence, and yet we wonder why he can't tell a story on the big screen. Yeah, WB took a beating from all sides, but in the long run it was probably worth it.

This x1000. But at this point, Snyder only serves the purpose of dividing DC fans in retrospective arguments. Both sides are dug in. I'm with you, but I wish Snyder would just stfu so we don't have to keep getting reminded at how the DCEU's run out of the gate was a failure -- no matter who you blame.

[kjn]

There's a clear formula established by Marvel (and utilized by Wonder Woman and Aquaman) that is the way to go with making these films. Zack Snyder has shown and expressed no interest in adhering to that formula, which made him a bad choice to helm the DCEU.

I think if you look at the similarities or a shared formula between Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and the Marvel films, then you end up with something hugely general that had already been explored in plenty of earlier movies. Heck, if you compare Wonder Woman and Aquaman you find very few similarities between them.

The reason Snyder's film failed was much more basic than that: he failed to make the general audience care about the characters.

[kingaliencracker]

The issue here is that people are acting like Snyder was portraying this Batman as how Batman SHOULD be. He was portraying the exact opposite. Batman killing is supposed to be shocking and unpleasant to watch. There shouldn't be an argument about whether Batman killed people in the comics originally or the logistics and reasoning etc, there is none. Bruce has no reasoning, he is making mistakes. Snyder was trying to illustrate it but people are acting like he was glorifying the murder and violence and saying that this Batman should be the Batman we see. The intent wasn't malevolent, Snyder just had a different idea of what he wanted to do with Batman, and to me all it did was hammer home the no kill policy for me, and that was 100% part of his intent

The logistical issue of Batman being willing to kill low-level criminals as depicted in Batman vs. Superman is that this would seemingly give him no qualms about killing his more lethal adversaries, such as Joker. Further, if Batman is willing to take a machine gun and kill bad guys, then it defeats the purpose of the "behind the shadows" aspect of the character.

So whatever Snyder's intent was, it was lost in the overall logistics of Batman the character.

[kingaliencracker]

I think if you look at the similarities or a shared formula between Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and the Marvel films, then you end up with something hugely general that had already been explored in plenty of earlier movies. Heck, if you compare Wonder Woman and Aquaman you find very few similarities between them.

The reason Snyder's film failed was much more basic than that: he failed to make the general audience care about the characters.

Aquaman and Wonder Woman were a lot alike, if not in plot then definitely in structure, and it's a structure that has been utilized by Marvel since 2008.

If we want to say it goes as far back as say, Superman The Movie, then so be it. My point is that Snyder is not a guy who wants to adhere to the typical super hero formula, which makes him a great choice for a film like Watchmen but a bad choice for JL.

[kingaliencracker]

This x1000. But at this point, Snyder only serves the purpose of dividing DC fans in retrospective arguments. Both sides are dug in. I'm with you, but I wish Snyder would just stfu so we don't have to keep getting reminded at how the DCEU's run out of the gate was a failure -- no matter who you blame.

But Snyder's a comic book fan, which I firmly believe based on his work. So he's going to be more vocal regarding his critics and what should have been, versus say...Kenneth Branagh or Jon Favreau.

[Elmo]

The logistical issue of Batman being willing to kill low-level criminals as depicted in Batman vs. Superman is that this would seemingly give him no qualms about killing his more lethal adversaries, such as Joker. Further, if Batman is willing to take a machine gun and kill bad guys, then it defeats the purpose of the "behind the shadows" aspect of the character.

So whatever Snyder's intent was, it was lost in the overall logistics of Batman the character.

I don't really see your point. This Batman has been operating for 20 years and over that time has become mentally and emotionally broken, and the reveal of Superman to the world is the culmination of that. Superman's death is what brings him out of the dark side. Besides, who is to say he didn't kill any of his lethal adversaries? The point wasn't that Batman kills, it's that he's lost sight of the values in his mission and doesn't care about the collateral damage. It was Snyder's own vision and direction for Batman based on what he knew and liked about the character. He's trying to portray Batman as a real human being dealing with the psychological effects of being a vigilante for decades and now coming face to face with a being with powers who can seemingly do anything and he completely separates himself from his own humanity, because he himself doesn't see the humanity in Superman. He sees that he's been doing this for years and yet when the world faced alien invasion he was in no position to fight anyone like Superman, he loses sight of what the mission is really about

[kingaliencracker]

I don't really see your point. This Batman has been operating for 20 years and over that time has become mentally and emotionally broken, and the reveal of Superman to the world is the culmination of that. Superman's death is what brings him out of the dark side. Besides, who is to say he didn't kill any of his lethal adversaries? The point wasn't that Batman kills, it's that he's lost sight of the values in his mission and doesn't care about the collateral damage. It was his own vision and direction for Batman based on what he knew and liked about the character

And it's a take that ultimately didn't work for me. There's serious logistical problems with it.

He's perfectly entitled to depict the character as he sees fit in his films. I'm not a writer or a director. But for me, as Snyder made it, it doesn't work. It also didn't work in Tim Burton's version, for whatever that's worth, even though I still love the '89 Batman film for nostalgic purposes.

And we know he didn't kill the Joker because the Joker was alive and well in Suicide Squad.

[Elmo]

And it's a take that ultimately didn't work for me. There's serious logistical problems with it.

He's perfectly entitled to depict the character as he sees fit in his films. I'm not a writer or a director. But for me, as Snyder made it, it doesn't work. It also didn't work in Tim Burton's version, for whatever that's worth.

And we know he didn't kill the Joker because the Joker was alive and well in Suicide Squad.

I thought it worked great, but I was just trying to dispel the notion that Snyder would normally want Batman to be killing people. whether it worked or not is a different discussion
And that's cool that you think the Joker is Batman's only villain but clearly not what I meant lol.

[Osiris-Rex]

Sorry but Ayer's style clearly worked from a financial perspective. Where he failed was in the script, though seeing as how he was given a 6 weeks mandate to write a script, it wasn't exactly all his fault.

Birds Of Prey has a proven talented screenwriter and had more than enough time in development to not run into the same issues SS did.

Plus WB pretty much butchered Ayer's movie. Chopped out so much of the Joker's scenes that Joker had no purpose in the movie. So we can't really blame Ayer without knowing the movie he tried to make.

I think if you look at the similarities or a shared formula between Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and the Marvel films, then you end up with something hugely general that had already been explored in plenty of earlier movies. Heck, if you compare Wonder Woman and Aquaman you find very few similarities between them.

The reason Snyder's film failed was much more basic than that: he failed to make the general audience care about the characters.

Maybe I am being Captain Obvious, but if you don't care about the characters you probably won't care about the movie. You can have good, likeable characters in a bad movie but seldom does a good movie
have characters that people don't like or care about.

[Punisher007]

The problem is, if Batman is so willing to mow down low level thugs, then WTH hasn't he killed The Joker yet? Especially since, in the DCEU, Joker has apparently already killed Robin?

[Agent Z]

The problem is, if Batman is so willing to mow down low level thugs, then WTH hasn't he killed The Joker yet? Especially since, in the DCEU, Joker has apparently already killed Robin?

Who says he even knew where he was for starters?

And again, him killing was a recent development and he'd been retired for decades.

[Elmo]

The problem is, if Batman is so willing to mow down low level thugs, then WTH hasn't he killed The Joker yet? Especially since, in the DCEU, Joker has apparently already killed Robin?

He's not a mission to go out and murder criminals. He's not trying to track down the Joker or Two Face or Freeze and murder them. He's doing what he normally does in Gotham but at this point in time he's muddled and doesn't care about the collateral damage. Maybe you're seeing it like this version of Batman doesn't have a no-kill policy and is just a murderous Batman but that's not what it is at all, he simply has lost those core values that make him Batman. but by the end he isn't that person anymore

[kingaliencracker]

Who says he even knew where he was for starters?

And again, him killing was a recent development and he'd been retired for decades.

Where was it ever stated that Batman had been retired for decades??

[Agent Z]

Where was it ever stated that Batman had been retired for decades??

Bruce mentions he hasn't been Batman in 20 years to Alfred.

[Elmo]

Bruce mentions he hasn't been Batman in 20 years to Alfred.

No he doesn't. Bruce is not retired in BvS.