DC/WB Films/Worlds (No Spoilers)

[Holt]

So Joker is getting the spoilers:

Superman

end of spoilers treatment, eh?

[Osiris-Rex]

She can be a victim and still held accountable for her crimes. Those things don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

Patricia "Patty" Hearst was sentenced to 35 years in prison for her crimes committed after she was kidnapped, beaten, and raped by members of the terrorist organization the Symbionese Liberation Army.
Though later it was reduced to 7 years and Jimmy Carter commuted her sentence after 22 month. Bill Clinton later pardoned her.

[Robotman]

Maybe give us a proper Rogues team as well .

Yeah, I think too many people fall into looking at Harley as a victim, and while she is definitely the victim of Joker's abuse and that's awful, it's a relationship and life of crime she willingly walked into and generally is depicted as enjoying.

But there have been stories in which the Joker is shown to have been manipulating Dr. Quinzel from the start. He saw that she was lonely and basically programmed her while she was trying to analyze him. I guess it just depends on the writer. But I don’t think she should ever be considered completely innocent when it comes to her past crimes with the Joker. Having done so many terrible things in the past is part of what drives her to atone in the present.

[Frontier]

But there have been stories in which the Joker is shown to have been manipulating Dr. Quinzel from the start. He saw that she was lonely and basically programmed her while she was trying to analyze him. I guess it just depends on the writer. But I don’t think she should ever be considered completely innocent when it comes to her past crimes with the Joker. Having done so many terrible things in the past is part of what drives her to atone in the present.

Oh, Joker definitely manipulated her and knew which buttons to push, but I don't think it would've worked if there wasn't that part of Harleen that wanted that life with Joker.

[Nite-Wing]

Not that I didn't want Joker in this movie but it looks like Leto is involved in some capacity as that's his body double from SS. I'm a bit relieved we won't have to just ignore the ending of SS

Harley only ever wanted to cure the Joker and rehabilitate him as she fell in love with him. The Joker being mentally and physically abusive is also another tandem that makes her situation so tragic.
She became like him in an attempt to cure him/relate to him and now her whole life is pretty much stuck in the cycle of abuse while being a mirror reflection of him.

[Frontier]

Harley only ever wanted to cure the Joker and rehabilitate him as she fell in love with him. The Joker being mentally and physically abusive is also another tandem that makes her situation so tragic.
She became like him in an attempt to cure him/relate to him and now her whole life is pretty much stuck in the cycle of abuse while being a mirror reflection of him.

That's an aspect of why she became his therapist, but by the time she becomes Harley she pretty much embraces and falls in love with him for who he is.

[stargazer01]

That's an aspect of why she became his therapist, but by the time she becomes Harley she pretty much embraces and falls in love with him for who he is.

that's how I see it too. She liked his lifestyle and according to the film, she was even worse. She is a willing victim.

[Confuzzled]

Didn't Suicide Squad though explicitly show him damaging her mind, like with physical torture objects? Robbie's Harley is way more of a victim than original Harley was.

[Rac7d*]

Didn't Suicide Squad though explicitly show him damaging her mind, like with physical torture objects? Robbie's Harley is way more of a victim than original Harley was.

.............. well the animation never hid anyone of the physical abuse she endured, so i wouldnt say so

[stargazer01]

Didn't Suicide Squad though explicitly show him damaging her mind, like with physical torture objects? Robbie's Harley is way more of a victim than original Harley was.

SS also showed her smiling, flirting with him when she was still in control of herself. Maybe deep down she just liked him for whatever reason. He seduced her at first and she wasn't as strong as she should be. It's not the first time that doctors are emotionally damaged as well as their patients. She fell for his charm because she wasn't very sane to begin with. Unless he forced her from the beginning.

[Robotman]

SS also showed her smiling, flirting with him when she was still in control of herself. Maybe deep down she just liked him for whatever reason. He seduced her at first and she wasn't as strong as she should be. It's not the first time that doctors are emotionally damaged as well as their patients. She fell for his charm because she wasn't very sane to begin with. Unless he forced her from the beginning.

I don’t see Leto’s Jugalo Joker having that type of charisma. Ledger’s Joker on the other hand was just so captivating. I recall my sister and girlfriend talking about The Dark Knight and saying something along the lines of “I never understood Harley’s infatuation with the Joker until now.” My sister said he was scary but so fascinating that she could she herself falling for him in a weird way.

[SiegePerilous02]

Calling Harley a victim isn't really correct either. She willingly joined the Joker and went along with his actions.

Yeah, I think too many people fall into looking at Harley as a victim, and while she is definitely the victim of Joker's abuse and that's awful, it's a relationship and life of crime she willingly walked into and generally is depicted as enjoying.

I don't know. It only works if you think the Joker manipulated her where she crosses that line of being a victim more than a willing participant.

People like the idea of using Harley's relationship with the Joker as a way to describe toxic relationships or domestic abuse and paint Harley as a victim whose only crime was being in love with a bad man, but she fell in love with him knowing what he was and willingly went along with his crimes joyfully. I felt she crossed that line of being more of a willing participant. At least for most of her character's life. I guess DC is trying to downplay how much she joined in these days because they want Harley to be more of a hero now.

There's definitely victimization and manipulation in the Joker/Harley dynamic, but Harley isn't a completely passive victim. Her actual creators that created the relationship showed her giving as good as she got. When she felt she wasn't getting what she wanted, she'd turn on the Joker, often with physical violence (see Harleuinade, the Trial, Joker's Millions and she was prepared to dish it out in JLU's Wild Cards) to the point where he'd even show some uncharacteristic fear towards her. He could often easily manipulate the situation and turn it around so he was emotionally dominant and could lash out at her again, but it wasn't constant. Him even allowing her to get away with beating him is also pretty telling. There's also her willing participation with a big smile on her face as the Joker prepares to drill a hole in Gordon's forehead, and helping him torture Tim Drake to insanity. Him playing the manipulative sympathy card during their therapy sessions to make her fall in love with him can only go so far, there's something dark in her already.

The "Ivy needs to save her from Joker's abuse!" stuff is annoying too. Ivy's less abusive than the Joker, but still pretty abusive. Harley also seems to play up her fake ditziness around Ivy more than Mr. J, and the Joker seems to have more respect for her competence than Ivy does. He lets her play big parts in his schemes and trusts her to carry them out, as long as she doesn't upstage him. Ivy just writes her off as an idiot. If she truly wants to escape the abusive cycle, she's better off without either of them.

I get that Harley being an abusive survivor has become a big part of her character and is important in a way, but I think a lot of the more interesting darker aspects of her character are being lost in the process.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Watching BvS again for it's 3rd year anniversary. Such a distinctly made CBM, the opening credits definitely does well to set the tone of the film.

It's just a shame when we get to the DoJ bit the film sortta loses itself a bit. I do still think BvS portion should have been the whole film forget DoJ but obviously WB saw it as a quick cut in.

[Ascended]

I don't know. It only works if you think the Joker manipulated her where she crosses that line of being a victim more than a willing participant.

People like the idea of using Harley's relationship with the Joker as a way to describe toxic relationships or domestic abuse and paint Harley as a victim whose only crime was being in love with a bad man, but she fell in love with him knowing what he was and willingly went along with his crimes joyfully. I felt she crossed that line of being more of a willing participant. At least for most of her character's life. I guess DC is trying to downplay how much she joined in these days because they want Harley to be more of a hero now.

Oh, Harley is definitely a criminal of guilty of plenty of crimes. She's committed them on her own, via her own planning, and she's been a willing accomplice to Ivy and Joker and whoever else. She's definitely a deranged, damaged, dangerous person who should pay for the lives she's taken and ruined. Bitch is stone cold crazy.

But the fact that Harley is also an insane criminal doesn't mean the abuse, manipulation, and damage done by the Joker is okay.

[kingaliencracker]

Eh, not necessarily.

Ignoring MOS, BvS & JL and focusing on Aquaman, Wonderwoman & Shazam! (Plus the other upcoming DC movies) fixes that problem.

I don't think WB will really do a cohesive film universe akin to Marvel, especially after the failure of JL. They seem to be going a different route with DC's properties.