DC/WB Films/Worlds (No Spoilers)

[Agent Z]

I'm not sure what this reply (and replies like these) is supposed to mean. Yes, the MCU is said to have variety, whether you don't think it does or not. So does the DCEU, but that just started recently.

The MCU also has high box office and cultural impact, and a HUGE fanbase. Implying it doesn't at this point just feels like ignoring reality or being negative for no reason. The fact that Avengers (2012) is a very memorable movie, Guardians' soundtrack (and the movie itself) was very popular, Black Panther is one of the most talked about, acclaimed and referenced popular film this decade, and both Infinity War and Endgame turned Thanos into a movie villain icon and meme proves it has cultural impact right now (which will likely last).

A lot of popular film culture today is dictated by the MCU, as "Marvel movies" are referenced a lot in other forms of entertainment and regular talk, many movies have been said to borrow from their formula (including the DCEU), and many modern film catchphrases come from MCU films ("I am Groot," "Wakanda Forever," "I am Iron Man," many Thanos quotes).

Kids may be doing Fortnite dances, and they're also dressing up or cosplaying as MCU characters every year for Halloween or any costume party. After 11 years, they're still going to see these movies again and again, and we've seen once highflying franchises crap out even after a shorter period of time (Transformers), so that is a sign of impact. We've seen a few of the characters reach and connect with people on a more personal level, leading them to be discussed in think-pieces, or the films themselves do that. And lots of kids say those catchphrases. There's no point denying that, or any of the above. I'm no big DCEU fan or whatever, but I wouldn't go around pretending like there aren't people that watch these movies and like them, or that so far it isn't a commercial success. Obviously none of those things are true.

The DCEU's variety is not a recent thing. WW and Suicide Squad no matter what you think of them, were not like BvS or Man of Steel.

[Pinsir]

I also don't think anyone will deny the DC brand is very popular on its own, something the movies have greatly benefited from. In fact, I never even said the DC films weren't popular. I was refuting an argument suggesting the MCU was not.

I don't think anyone here suggested the MCU was not popular.

Well there's your problem. I never said box office equals quality. I've not even been talking about quality. I've been talking about cultural impact. You're conflating the two together when they're not the same thing. Lots of movies are popular and have cultural impact, but are said to not be of high quality. The Room is a good example of this. Even Titanic can be used as an example (some critics think the script is quite rubbish). To use Star Wars as an example again, the prequel films weren't hailed as high quality cinema, but they became impactful movies. Same thing can be said about the Donner Superman movie. Same thing can be said about the MCU too. I never came here to assert it was a high quality franchise. If you ask me, they don't have a single film that is a masterpiece. It's a good enough/great blockbuster franchise that has continued to defy expectations again and again, and is therefore popular.

Again, box office does not equal cultural impact, but it can be used as evidence to suggest it. if you look at some of the most culturally relevant films, there's a clear correlation between relevance/popularity and box office success. How else do you want to judge a movie by its popularity anyway? Are you gonna tell me films like The Dark Knight, Titanic, The Lion King are others aren't also culturally impactful because of their box office gross?

Most relevant movies are probably going to have a large number of people watch them, but as you said whether or not a film lasts is more nuanced than that. The MCU is old enough that we can easily tell which individual films continue to resonate with fans. When James Gunn was fire for instance, it was primarily his fans of his GotG work that lead the charge, but when Ant-Man 3 is seemingly cancelled...well no one seems to notice.

By the way, almost all of my criticism of how people use the box office is applicable to the DCEU. That being said it is kind of silly that people cling to box office numbers when home rentals have been a thing now for over forty years. A lot of people here were disappointed in Shazam's box office, but most people who are interested in superhero films are inevitable going to watch it.

[Vakanai]

Ugh, I hate the Marvel vs DC talk and bashing.

[Castling]

I know it's meaningless for the Marvel Netflix shows, that was my point.

DC could swoop in and take that spot but they didn't.

Aren't there a ton of DC shows on Netflix already? All the CW stuff is there and the DC Universe shows (Titans and Doom Patrol) are supposed to be there, too.

[byrd156]

Aren't there a ton of DC shows on Netflix already? All the CW stuff is there and the DC Universe shows (Titans and Doom Patrol) are supposed to be there, too.

I'm talking about popularity, not amount of content.

[Castling]

I'm talking about popularity, not amount of content.

As I recall the Marvel shows didn't stay all too popular.

[byrd156]

Again, the shows are doing well and have been getting a great deal of positive buzz. You just seem to be unaware of it or are letting your dislike of Titans blind you to it.

Didn't say they weren't doing well, like I keep saying it feels like DC missed a chance to become the new big guys on the streaming side of things. I feel like there was more hype and discussion about the Netflix MCU. This isn't me hating on the DCU streaming service or the shows (other than Titans, I think season 1 is trash but I'm hopeful for season 2.) it just feels like to me these shows aren't in the cultural zeitgeist like the Netflix shows were.

The streaming shows are great but they just feel like any other show. They feel like CW shows with better budgets and production value, and I say that as someone who watched Arrow and Flash religiously for like 5 years. The Marvel Netflix stuff felt like GoT, Breaking Bad, early Walking Dead levels of hype that slowly died out with certain shows like Iron Fist season 1, Luke Cage season 2, and Defenders but came back with Punisher and was always there with Daredevil and Jessica Jones (I'm eh on this one).

You can think I'm wrong and I probably am, I just don't hear a lot about the show unless I'm actively looking for reviews or praise. The other shows it would show up in your face regardless.

[byrd156]

As I recall the Marvel shows didn't stay all too popular.

Yeah I know that's my point, DC could've filled that gap Netflix left open.

[Frontier]

Didn't say they weren't doing well, like I keep saying it feels like DC missed a chance to become the new big guys on the streaming side of things. I feel like there was more hype and discussion about the Netflix MCU. This isn't me hating on the DCU streaming service or the shows (other than Titans, I think season 1 is trash but I'm hopeful for season 2.) it just feels like to me these shows aren't in the cultural zeitgeist like the Netflix shows were.

The streaming shows are great but they just feel like any other show. They feel like CW shows with better budgets and production value, and I say that as someone who watched Arrow and Flash religiously for like 5 years. The Marvel Netflix stuff felt like GoT, Breaking Bad, early Walking Dead levels of hype that slowly died out with certain shows like Iron Fist season 1, Luke Cage season 2, and Defenders but came back with Punisher and was always there with Daredevil and Jessica Jones (I'm eh on this one).

You can think I'm wrong and I probably am, I just don't hear a lot about the show unless I'm actively looking for reviews or praise. The other shows it would show up in your face regardless.

Doom Patrol and Swamp Thing seem pretty un-CW.

[Agent Z]

Didn't say they weren't doing well, like I keep saying it feels like DC missed a chance to become the new big guys on the streaming side of things. I feel like there was more hype and discussion about the Netflix MCU. This isn't me hating on the DCU streaming service or the shows (other than Titans, I think season 1 is trash but I'm hopeful for season 2.) it just feels like to me these shows aren't in the cultural zeitgeist like the Netflix shows were.

The streaming shows are great but they just feel like any other show. They feel like CW shows with better budgets and production value, and I say that as someone who watched Arrow and Flash religiously for like 5 years. The Marvel Netflix stuff felt like GoT, Breaking Bad, early Walking Dead levels of hype that slowly died out with certain shows like Iron Fist season 1, Luke Cage season 2, and Defenders but came back with Punisher and was always there with Daredevil and Jessica Jones (I'm eh on this one).

You can think I'm wrong and I probably am, I just don't hear a lot about the show unless I'm actively looking for reviews or praise. The other shows it would show up in your face regardless.

The DCU shows are as far from the CW as you can get. The lack of idiotic romantic plots alone is a difference.

And yeah, you are wrong about the shows not being popular. There is plenty of coverage for them all over the net.

[Jim Kelly]

Doom Patrol and Swamp Thing seem pretty un-CW.

Funny thing is there's a load of producing, writing and directing talent from the CW that worked on DOOM PATROL. While one of the creators for SWAMP THING, Mark Verheiden, was a producer on SMALLVILLE.

Of course, being pros, they make content for the market they're serving. You might not like CW viewers--everyone has their own tastes--but you can't fault people in the industry for doing their job.

I'd say that the programs made for the DC Universe and other streaming services are boutique programs. They can afford to have a high end, discriminating taste, because they're being made for an exclusive audience. But the CW shows have to cast a wider net. And they need to produce more episodes--so they have to stretch their budgets to support all that extra production.

I know a lot of people say the CW should make shorter seasons--but they would probably lose a lot of their crew and production staff, because people like to have reliable work so they have a paycheque every week to put food on the table and pay their bills. If you cut down seasons to 8 or 10 episodes, people have to go looking for more work for the rest of the year, because the regular jobs don't pay that well that you can live on 10 weeks of work per year. So those people want to find jobs that give them steady work for the most weeks in a year. And then you have the best workers going to those shows that give them the most employment.

[byrd156]

Doom Patrol and Swamp Thing seem pretty un-CW.

I didn't mean to group Doom Patrol in there, I think it's a contender for one of the all time best superhero shows if it has a couple more seasons at the same level of quality. I'm also not referring to Swamp Thing since I haven't seen it, my opinions are pre-Swamp Thing on DCU.

[byrd156]

The DCU shows are as far from the CW as you can get. The lack of idiotic romantic plots alone is a difference.

And yeah, you are wrong about the shows not being popular. There is plenty of coverage for them all over the net.

I dunno, Dick and Kory having a relationship out of nowhere, Gar and Raven, and a love triangle between Dick and Hawk & Dove seems like a lot right out of the gate.

Didn't say they weren't popular. There are plenty of popular shows out there right now that you or I have never even heard of.

[Agent Z]

I dunno, Dick and Kory having a relationship out of nowhere, Gar and Raven, and a love triangle between Dick and Hawk & Dove seems like a lot right out of the gate.

Dick, Dawn and Hank don't have a love triangle. Dick and Dawn hooked up at one point in the past and that was it. Dick and Kory don't have a relationship. They had a one night stand and decided they weren't in a good place to start a relationship and so they dropped the idea. That leaves only Gar and Raven who don't have a relationship but are attracted to each other. They are also sheltered teens who have never dated before this point and even their relationship hasn't gone past them being friends. It's still more mature than what you'd expect out of the CW.

Didn't say they weren't popular. There are plenty of popular shows out there right now that you or I have never even heard of.

Then what are you trying to say? You keep going on about how these shows are a failure in some way because they aren't as talked about in your own bubble. When others point out the shows get a lot of coverage, you backpedal on your points all while still insinuating the shows aren't popular.

[Tec15]

Superman I doubt but in the 60's there was a period where Batman was on the verge of cancellation so in their early hay day before the Adam West Batman Show helped revitalized the brand I could see Avengers outselling him.

The Avengers hadn't even debuted when Batman was in danger in 1963. DC in general also outsold Marvel throughout the 1960's.