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  1. #76
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    New tidbit is that WB is looking to cast a mixed-race actress who can sing as Black Canary.

    I want to take this time by apologizing to the poor actress who will unfortunately receive death threats for being cast in this.

  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBarnhill View Post
    New tidbit is that WB is looking to cast a mixed-race actress who can sing as Black Canary.

    I want to take this time by apologizing to the poor actress who will unfortunately receive death threats for being cast in this.
    Sad but true.

  3. #78
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Juliana Harkavy is mixed-race too, did she get death threats for it? If she did, I imagine it was probably from crazy Laurel fans, not due to her race.

    As for the casting, if true, it does strike me as a bit odd, since the team has 3 women of color(if we're to assume that Huntress would be based on the New-52 version). 3 out of the 5 BoP members would be Asian, Latina and a dark-skinned Italian, so why change a recognizable character like Black Canary when the team is already diverse as it is. And if they did want a mixed-race actress, why go to Lady Gaga first. lol
    Last edited by Johnny; 08-11-2018 at 10:40 AM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    There are many people who fancast Gaga as Ivy but Circe is the only DC character I see fit for her.
    Really? Well, okay then .
    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Bit of an overreaction. Harley had nothing to do with Suicide Squad's deterioration as a franchise. The truth is nobody other than Ostrander could really crack it. The New 52 at least made it a commercially viable title by propping it up on HQ's shoulders.
    I think she definitely made the SS more marketable but I also think her involvement and promotion on the team has been indicative of the negative trend for the group as of late as they moved away from what worked about Ostrander's run.
    Eh... Catwoman is an evergreen pop culture icon whose longevity in relevance is beyond compare to the likes of Harley. Ivy too is incredibly popular and gives Harley a run for her money when it comes to cosplay, fanart, statue and merchandising sales etc. From what I've seen, they also tend to be more appealing towards a larger spectrum of women than Harley is. If Catwoman and Ivy are given the same push or even half the push as Harley in the DC film universe, the likelihood of them completely eclipsing her is very real, especially as they are the "original femme fatales", rendering Harley useless.
    Harley's not much of a Femme Fatale though.

    I mean, she's sexy and knows it (sometimes), but she doesn't really come off like a Femme Fatale at least as far as how they're expected to act beyond being beautiful and dangerous bad girls.
    Quote Originally Posted by FBarnhill View Post
    New tidbit is that WB is looking to cast a mixed-race actress who can sing as Black Canary.

    I want to take this time by apologizing to the poor actress who will unfortunately receive death threats for being cast in this.
    Personally I think martial arts and fighting experience is more important then singing when it comes to Black Canary, but I guess that can be trained/faked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Juliana Harkavy is mixed-race too, did she get death threats for it? If she did, I imagine it was probably from crazy Laurel fans, not due to her race.
    I didn't even know Harkavy was mixed-race. Kind of a neat surprise there .

    When I think of "crazy" Arrow fans, I usually think of Olicity fans. I mean, if Laurel fans were upset, I think they had a right to be considering how badly the show handled her and the Black Canary identity (and still do).
    As for the casting, if true, it does strike me as a bit odd, since the team has 3 women of color(if we're to assume that Huntress would be based on the New-52 version). 3 out of the 5 BoP members would be Asian, Latina and a dark-skinned Italian, so why change a recognizable character like Black Canary when the team is already diverse as it is. And if they did want a mixed-race actress, why go to Lady Gaga first. lol
    Yeah, if they were going to go for a mixed-race actress I would've expected it for Huntress, because of the New 52 race-change, over Canary.

    But I guess two blonde white women on one team was seen as a bit much?

  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    When I think of "crazy" Arrow fans, I usually think of Olicity fans. I mean, if Laurel fans were upset, I think they had a right to be considering how badly the show handled her and the Black Canary identity (and still do).
    I walked away from the Arrow fandom a long time ago, haven't even seen the last few seasons. Different portions of the fandom were bad enough back then, I can imagine what they're like now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Yeah, if they were going to go for a mixed-race actress I would've expected it for Huntress, because of the New 52 race-change, over Canary.

    But I guess two blonde white women on one team was seen as a bit much?
    I guess so. lol Some scoopers are saying it's actually an open-ethnicity casting, not specifically looking for a bi-racial actress. I guess it's kind of like with Batwoman. They wanted to cast a lesbian actress but of any ethnicity.

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Now Birds of Prey as a title is quickly losing relevance on its own without Harley even being attached. If like SS, adding HQ to BoP gives it a commercial boost then might as well.
    On the other hand, titles don't necessarily lose relevance of their own. Birds of Prey under the pre-New 52 was, as I understand it, one of DC's more popular titles. The cheesecake factor probably contributed, but also that they had good creative teams (first under Chuck Dixon and later Gail Simone). But I also believe that Babs-as-Oracle gave the team a unique and memorable dynamic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Eh... Catwoman is an evergreen pop culture icon whose longevity in relevance is beyond compare to the likes of Harley. Ivy too is incredibly popular and gives Harley a run for her money when it comes to cosplay, fanart, statue and merchandising sales etc. From what I've seen, they also tend to be more appealing towards a larger spectrum of women than Harley is. If Catwoman and Ivy are given the same push or even half the push as Harley in the DC film universe, the likelihood of them completely eclipsing her is very real, especially as they are the "original femme fatales", rendering Harley useless.
    I'm not sure about those assertions. On Deviantart Harley Quinn hits circa 150,000 pictures, Catwoman 100,000 (and that might include non-Selina catwomen), and Poison Ivy 65,000. On AO3, Harleen Quinzel hits 3,500 works, Selina Kyle 3,000, and Pamela Isley 1,700. Now, I haven't checked for time, but Catwoman was present in Nolan's Batman films and in the Gotham TV series, so I believe it's a wash there between her and Harley in big media exposure.

    More importantly, Harley simply feels like a much more modern figure than Catwoman or Poison Ivy, who both are rooted in a tradition that female sexuality is something threatening and quite possibly evil. (Catwoman is the classic spy femme fatale; Poison Ivy goes back to the Circe archetype.) Harley still is sexy and evil, but there is no link between her being sexy and her being evil, for her sexy is fun and arguably for her own sake. I believe that's a part of why she has become so popular.

    In any case, choosing the movie framework after how a given character should best appear on screen instead of for making the best possible movie is arguably a fool's errand in any case, unlikely to end well i the long run.

  7. #82
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think she definitely made the SS more marketable but I also think her involvement and promotion on the team has been indicative of the negative trend for the group as of late as they moved away from what worked about Ostrander's run.
    I think if they actually bothered giving interesting arcs to other characters as well, her presence wouldn't be an issue. But they depend on her too much as a crutch.

    Harley's not much of a Femme Fatale though.
    Margot Robbie plays her more like a traditional femme fatale though, even hinting the craziness is an act to get people to underestimate how calculating she really is.


    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    On the other hand, titles don't necessarily lose relevance of their own. Birds of Prey under the pre-New 52 was, as I understand it, one of DC's more popular titles. The cheesecake factor probably contributed, but also that they had good creative teams (first under Chuck Dixon and later Gail Simone). But I also believe that Babs-as-Oracle gave the team a unique and memorable dynamic.
    "On its own" I meant sans Harley's involvement.


    I'm not sure about those assertions. On Deviantart Harley Quinn hits circa 150,000 pictures, Catwoman 100,000 (and that might include non-Selina catwomen), and Poison Ivy 65,000. On AO3, Harleen Quinzel hits 3,500 works, Selina Kyle 3,000, and Pamela Isley 1,700. Now, I haven't checked for time, but Catwoman was present in Nolan's Batman films and in the Gotham TV series, so I believe it's a wash there between her and Harley in big media exposure.
    Well, the DCEU did give HQ an even bigger push. Still, those numbers for Selina and Ivy are pretty huge (especially for Ivy who hasn't really received widespread exposure since Batman and Robin more than 20 years ago, and the lesser said about that...). Those numbers are probably much bigger than the numbers for the Birds of Prey rumored to be featured in the film. Also, Catwoman and Poison Ivy are Halloween costume/collectible sales juggernauts.

    More importantly, Harley simply feels like a much more modern figure than Catwoman or Poison Ivy, who both are rooted in a tradition that female sexuality is something threatening and quite possibly evil. (Catwoman is the classic spy femme fatale; Poison Ivy goes back to the Circe archetype.) Harley still is sexy and evil, but there is no link between her being sexy and her being evil, for her sexy is fun and arguably for her own sake. I believe that's a part of why she has become so popular.
    Again, the Margot Robbie version has blurred the line and has connected the sexy and evil parts. In that sense, Catwoman and Ivy are arguably more appealing to women in a post #MeToo world as they are sexy but don't let their sexiness commodified for one man in particular. Also, Ivy has the environmental theme which will always keep her at the forefront of relevance. Selina is too much of a pop culture icon to be irrelevant at this point.

    In any case, choosing the movie framework after how a given character should best appear on screen instead of for making the best possible movie is arguably a fool's errand in any case, unlikely to end well i the long run.
    Not necessarily. I mean, Age of Ultron took away Hank Pym's most famous storyline and rewarded it to Robert Downey Jr.'s Iron Man. The MCU take on Spider-Man shunted Uncle Ben to make RDJ's Tony Stark the most influential father figure in Peter's life. Those films didn't really do "badly" per say.

    Also, watering down Catwoman and Poison Ivy to make Harley shine is more harmful than surrounding her with more straight laced but less scenery chewing characters, so that she shines by default while her team-mates are still their "best selves".

  8. #83
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Also, watering down Catwoman and Poison Ivy to make Harley shine is more harmful than surrounding her with more straight laced but less scenery chewing characters, so that she shines by default while her team-mates are still their "best selves".
    I don't really see Catwoman and Ivy as scene-chewers unless they get actress who go full-on flamboyant like their Returns or Batman and Robin portrayals.

    Really, if they do the other Birds or characters in this film justice then I think it would be about as even as a proper Sirens movie would be.

    Canary and Huntress should not be portrayed as straight-laced stiffs.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't really see Catwoman and Ivy as scene-chewers unless they get actress who go full-on flamboyant like their Returns or Batman and Robin portrayals.
    I think people haven't rewatched the original Harley and Ivy episode in a long time. Ivy gets the best lines and arguably steals the episode from Harley. If they had faithfully just recreated that episode then I reckon the Ivy actress would've been received on an equal footing as Robbie, if not flat out overshadowed her.

    The later H+I teams-ups gradually had Ivy become more of a straight player and have Harley be the bonkers wildchild. But it was clear Ivy was being held back in a sense.

    Catwoman is a strange one as even in Sirens she always felt like a third wheel, even if her teaming up with the crazier duo allowed for some interesting dynamics. But arguably she's still the most recognized character of the three (The Dark Knight Rises was a much bigger movie than Suicide Squad, and she's currently a major character on a network tv show) and the film will equally be betting on her name recognition, if not more so than Harley's.

    Really, if they do the other Birds or characters in this film justice then I think it would be about as even as a proper Sirens movie would be.
    I agree with that.

    Canary and Huntress should not be portrayed as straight-laced stiffs.
    I'll wait to see the execution here. "Straight laced" doesn't necessarily mean "stiff" or devoid of any appeal. Just that they aren't the type of wacky, larger than life character that Harley is. But if done justice, they can still be strong, inspiring characters in their own right.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBarnhill View Post
    New tidbit is that WB is looking to cast a mixed-race actress who can sing as Black Canary.

    I want to take this time by apologizing to the poor actress who will unfortunately receive death threats for being cast in this.
    So because Harley is blonde I'm guessing they don't want another blonde white character on the team so they are changing Canary's look. How stupid.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled;3839498
    Catwoman is a strange one as even in Sirens she always felt like a third wheel, even if her teaming up with the crazier duo allowed for some interesting dynamics. But arguably she's still the most recognized character of the three ([I
    The Dark Knight Rises[/I] was a much bigger movie than Suicide Squad, and she's currently a major character on a network tv show) and the film will equally be betting on her name recognition, if not more so than Harley's.
    Also the new Catwoman comic book, Catwoman #1 is in the top ten of comic book sales, 6th place. Now this may be a holdover from Batman #50. But then again Catwoman was a major character in the recent Batman comic books.
    Instead of being tied in with Harley Quinn as just a supporting character perhaps it is time for Catwoman to get a legitimate Catwoman movie of her own, featuring Selina Kyle as Catwoman. Supergirl is apparently getting a movie despite
    having a failed Supergirl movie several years ago. The Halle Berry disaster shouldn't hold Catwoman back from getting another movie. If they model Catwoman after the Catwoman in The Dark Knight Rises and make it a street level
    caper movie instead of a CGI heavy superhero movie they could probably make it for a reasonable amount of money and it would probably be a more interesting story. Something along the lines of the mini-series Selina's Big Score.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    ...so why change a recognizable character like Black Canary when the team is already diverse as it is. And if they did want a mixed-race actress, why go to Lady Gaga first. lol
    I don't think Black Canary is all that recognisable. She has a very generic look. Arrow is on its third Black Canary.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    I don't think Black Canary is all that recognisable. She has a very generic look. Arrow is on its third Black Canary.
    Considering just about every female superhero character on the CW wears black leather pants and top, that is hardly surprising. I can count on one hand the number of female superhero characters
    that don't wear black and may still have a finger or two left over.

  14. #89
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    I think people haven't rewatched the original Harley and Ivy episode in a long time. Ivy gets the best lines and arguably steals the episode from Harley. If they had faithfully just recreated that episode then I reckon the Ivy actress would've been received on an equal footing as Robbie, if not flat out overshadowed her.
    I guess I would have to re-watch it, but while I can see Ivy dominating because of her personality, I still recall the episode being fairly even-handed with both ladies and their relationship.

    But traditional Harley is also fairly subservient when it comes to her relationships, so that might have been part of it.
    Catwoman is a strange one as even in Sirens she always felt like a third wheel, even if her teaming up with the crazier duo allowed for some interesting dynamics. But arguably she's still the most recognized character of the three (The Dark Knight Rises was a much bigger movie than Suicide Squad, and she's currently a major character on a network tv show) and the film will equally be betting on her name recognition, if not more so than Harley's.
    I never thought of her as the third wheel of the Sirens, just the one with common sense and a better sense of morality who keeps the other girls in line.
    I'll wait to see the execution here. "Straight laced" doesn't necessarily mean "stiff" or devoid of any appeal. Just that they aren't the type of wacky, larger than life character that Harley is. But if done justice, they can still be strong, inspiring characters in their own right.
    I agree .
    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    I don't think Black Canary is all that recognisable. She has a very generic look. Arrow is on its third Black Canary.
    Her costumes on Arrow were definitely pretty generic at worst, or bondage gear at best when you look at Laurel's costume .

    But I don't expect the movies to take much, if any, influences from how Arrow handled Black Canary (and with good reason).

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Bit of an overreaction. Harley had nothing to do with Suicide Squad's deterioration as a franchise. The truth is nobody other than Ostrander could really crack it. The New 52 at least made it a commercially viable title by propping it up on HQ's shoulders.

    Now Birds of Prey as a title is quickly losing relevance on its own without Harley even being attached. If like SS, adding HQ to BoP gives it a commercial boost then might as well.
    It isn't an overreaction. It is more of a subjecting outlook on the SS franchise. I think it is pure garbage but I'm sure others like it, namely Harley fans. The problem is that the original concept of the team was about C and D list villains who were forced to be on that team and because of their stature there was a real threat of them dying, but because Harley is an A List character there is zero threat of that and given her stature she dominates the other characters in terms of focus without them being able to do anything about it. It is just a Harley team book now.

    And Harley has never been part of the BoP franchise. So how can you say it is losing relevance without her? Should DC add Harley to every team book that is selling poorly? DC has thrown a TON of marketing and pushed the Harley lead SS book probably more than any team book outside JL, but I think it has failed to sell to expectation. Even the dreadful Titans book sells more than it now. If DC pushed BoP as much as they pushed Harley's SS book it would be selling better than it is and probably not far off where SS is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Eh... Catwoman is an evergreen pop culture icon whose longevity in relevance is beyond compare to the likes of Harley. Ivy too is incredibly popular and gives Harley a run for her money when it comes to cosplay, fanart, statue and merchandising sales etc. From what I've seen, they also tend to be more appealing towards a larger spectrum of women than Harley is. If Catwoman and Ivy are given the same push or even half the push as Harley in the DC film universe, the likelihood of them completely eclipsing her is very real, especially as they are the "original femme fatales", rendering Harley useless.

    The BoP OTOH are far more non-threatening and can be used as "straight men foils" to play off Harley's antics.
    Harley crushes all of them in terms of fanart, cosplay, and merch sales. I think you believe that Harley is only where she is because of her use in the SS movie, but she was a major merch seller long before the movie came out and her comic was doing extremely well before the movie came out too. The recent Harley Renaissance has been going on since the Arkham games where she was a mascot for them, imo. The movie has only added to it where DC now looks at her and even calls her their "Fourth Pillar" on the level of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman.

    Catwoman is one of DC's top female characters, but she has never been at the level Harley is at now and Ivy will never be on this level because she isn't that type of character. I'd say only Catwoman would fit in the femme fatal category and I don't think I've heard anyone describe Ivy or Harley as that before. I don't really see how Catwoman and Ivy would really change things from Canary or Huntress too. All are generally written and portrayed as fairly serious characters and in both groups Harley would be he crazy over the top scene stealer. So the dynamics would be exactly the same but the only difference would be that Harley actually has a history and a connection with Catwoman and Ivy and fits with them more as villains. If anything a character like Catwoman would be a better character bounce off of because the audience knows her more and she is more established. So the dynamic between the two would be more even and there is less of a threat of Harley dominating everything and bullying them like with the BoP cast. It could be like the Deadpool and Wolverine relationship.

    Also if they were actually making a Sirens movie with Harley, Catwoman and Ivy and there was zero mention of a Harley lead BoP movie you would be praising it. Saying how great an idea it is and are excited to see it. So it is tough to argue with you about a Sirens movie when you would be excited for it if they were making one.

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