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  1. #8176
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Both WW (2017) and CA:TFA draw heavily on classic war movies. And while they have plenty of plot elements in common, there are also plenty of plot elements that differ, and they are very dissimilar in storytelling tempo and style, colour palette, scoring, and the way they approaches its characters and their interaction.

    You are correct in that neither of them are like Snyder's movies. But there are far more ways to make movies than the Snyder way or the MCU way.
    Those films also used those influences, but the subject was about the MCU's influence on the DCEU. They are yet the DCEU followed the MCU's lead after Snyder left.

    All the elements you mention can be found in some of the MCU movies, but they can also be found in lots of other movies.

    I'd recommend that you look into the stuff that ties the MCU movies together in the way they are crafted, and not cherrypick examples based on that movie X outside of the MCU is similar to movie Y inside the MCU, because you're missing out on the entire history of movies.
    They are, this isn't to say the films didn't do their own thing in other scenes or have other sources. I didn't cherry pick, I used a large swath from those movies that they in common with the MCU and its numerous. It's ridiculous how far people are going to deny the MCU has any influence on the DCEU.

  2. #8177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    It was only a faction though. Should we punish the good actors for the bad? Is DC caving in to the trolls or rewarding the polite supporters?

    We have to deal with toxic fandom sure - but every fandom has toxic elements. How do you punish the toxic fans without punishing the good ones? How do you reward the good ones without rewarding the toxic jerks? Because the people asking for the cut aren't all toxic. No amount of donations is going to cover up the toxic element? That means you are letting the toxic element cover up the donations and everyone in the fandom who isn't toxic.
    By confronting them when you see them. You should be able to tell a good Snyder fan from a toxic one, they're the ones harassing people. The MCU has people who do this, too. Every fandom does. The toxic fandom taint a fandom, but they're all the fandom is. Just like not all Snyder fans did those charities, but the toxic fandom will use that as cover so they look good and blue the lines between them selves and the good fans. The Snyder fandom is a fandom with numerous parts in it, they're not all the same group of people. Seperate the good from the bad.

  3. #8178
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    By confronting them when you see them. You should be able to tell a good Snyder fan from a toxic one, they're the ones harassing people. The MCU has people who do this, too. Every fandom does. The toxic fandom taint a fandom, but they're all the fandom is. Just like not all Snyder fans did those charities, but the toxic fandom will use that as cover so they look good and blue the lines between them selves and the good fans. The Snyder fandom is a fandom with numerous parts in it, they're not all the same group of people. Seperate the good from the bad.
    Okay, I didn't quite get my point across so - why is getting the Snyder cut only WB caving in to the toxic elements? Why do you only acknowledge the toxic part of the fandom? Why does the whole thing get equated to the people hating on minority led movies? Why is the Snyder cut such a problem? Is there no way to get the movie that isn't a sin because some of the pro-Snyder cut people suck? Is there any way I can want to see this movie and not deal with all the negativity?

    That's kind of what I want to address. The need to put a negative spin on the entire thing when there's a lot of okay people who just want to watch a movie and yet get dumped in with the people hating Black Panther and Captain Marvel (both films I enjoyed in the theater).

  4. #8179
    The Nature Boy AnakinFlair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    I remember in 2015 when James Bond Spectre was coming out and people (including Grace Randolph) were saying that SPECTRE (from the James Bond novels and movies from the late 50s, early 60s) was a ripoff of 2014's Captain America TWS HYDRA. It was so bad.
    I vaguely remember that. But in regards to that, IIRC SPECTRE hadn't been used (and hadn't even been named) in the movies since the Connery Bond films due to lawsuits over who actually owned the concept of SPECTRE. The most we got was Roger Moore picking up a bald guy in a wheelchair whose face we never saw from a helicopter and dropping him down a smokestack. And the sad fact is that many of the new generation of Bond fans may not have even gone back and watched the classic movies, or at best had only watched the Brosnan films, so I can see why some people would consider SPECTER a Hydra rip-off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Don’t pat Marvel on the back too hard. They didn’t get Captain Marvel green lit until after WW had already been announced, and the majority of the movies still starred white men. That the MCU is some beacon of progressiveness is an odd hill to die on.
    Was Captain Marvel greenlit after Wonder Woman was announced, or had been released? I remember hearing about a possible Captain Marvel years ago in the way I always heard about a possible Black Widow movie- 'We'll get to it one day! But not today!'.



    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Really? Thor was my favorite non-Iron Man movie of Marvel's phase 1
    Thor used to be my least favorite of the MCU movies, but I went back and forced myself to rewatch it recently, and found I actually enjoyed it. Though I did hate the fish-out-of-water stuff.

  5. #8180
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Sorry, I know you acknowledge that there are good bits of the fandom and I worded that poorly. But there should be a way to not hate the fact we're getting this film.

  6. #8181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Sorry, I know you acknowledge that there are good bits of the fandom and I worded that poorly. But there should be a way to not hate the fact we're getting this film.
    You can still enjoy the film.

    That's kind of what I want to address. The need to put a negative spin on the entire thing when there's a lot of okay people who just want to watch a movie and yet get dumped in with the people hating Black Panther and Captain Marvel (both films I enjoyed in the theater).
    Because the TOXIC fandom is the most vocal.

    In more cases it's folks who never saw the movies or losers who need youtube revenue. They just use those films or projects to attack folks.




    Was Captain Marvel greenlit after Wonder Woman was announced, or had been released? I remember hearing about a possible Captain Marvel years ago in the way I always heard about a possible Black Widow movie- 'We'll get to it one day! But not today!'.
    Wonder Woman was announced in 2010 with Patty Jenkins being hired in 2015.

    Cap Marvel was under development in 2013 and official 2014. Script writers were hired in 2015.

    Remember Ike at Marvel fought to not get that movie made. Unlike WW-it was always someone trying to get a film made. They were trying that since 1996.

    Both started hiring folks at the same time.

  7. #8182
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    You can still enjoy the film.



    Because the TOXIC fandom is the most vocal.

    In more cases it's folks who never saw the movies or losers who need youtube revenue. They just use those films or projects to attack folks.






    Wonder Woman was announced in 2010 with Patty Jenkins being hired in 2015.

    Cap Marvel was under development in 2013 and official 2014. Script writers were hired in 2015.

    Remember Ike at Marvel fought to not get that movie made. Unlike WW-it was always someone trying to get a film made. They were trying that since 1996.

    Both started hiring folks at the same time.
    The haters are always the most vocal. We just boo them and move on.

  8. #8183
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Those films also used those influences, but the subject was about the MCU's influence on the DCEU. They are yet the DCEU followed the MCU's lead after Snyder left.
    Have you looked at the credits for Wonder Woman? Snyder was the producer, and was the person responsible for casting Gal Gadot and for getting Patty Jenkins as director. Wonder Woman is arguably as much of a Snyder film as Suicide Squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    They are, this isn't to say the films didn't do their own thing in other scenes or have other sources. I didn't cherry pick, I used a large swath from those movies that they in common with the MCU and its numerous. It's ridiculous how far people are going to deny the MCU has any influence on the DCEU.
    Has it had no influence? Certainly not. But I think that influence and inspiration has more to do with how the DCEU movies were set up to tie together strongly towards Justice League, not necessarily on the individual movies.

    Because neither the MCU nor the DCEU has been particularly innovative here. Where the MCU has excelled is in the execution and branding side.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  9. #8184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Because most viewers like it and have fun watching it?
    Because it's the kind of film a lot of people hoped they would make?
    It's okay if you don't like the Shazam movie, but it isn't something despised like the Snyder films, and frankly DC needed it.
    Most viewers... you mean the ones that actually showed up to watch it? Or we are going to ignore its insignificant Box Office numbers? And didn't I just mention the fact that the actual ratings, not the loud haters, disagree with that notion? Despised you say, let's bring in the numbers to illustrate a less biased story right there:
    (I'm excluding BvS and JL because neither of the movies are the cuts Snyder intended to release to the theaters and they got their ratings based off theatrical cuts, to be clear, I didn't like the TC of BvS, but was converted after watching the Director's, so yeah, it matters a lot. To see the whole picture clear, let's bring in MoS/Shazam/Aquaman data to analyze it all)

    IMDb:





    Rotten Tomatoes: (from top to bottom: MoS, AM, Shazam)

    4.jpg5.jpg6.jpg

    Hell, go to the most casual of the casuals ratings, the Google search rating and the numbers are: MoS with 4.6 and 87%, Aquaman with 4.1 and 90% and Shazam with 4.2 and 89%.

    So what are we seeing here? In everything beside the so called "professional" critics numbers, MoS isn't far behind both of those so called "audience pleasers", DCEU "course correctors" and everyone and their mothers darlings in general according to some people, actually it even does better among the audiences in other places! Wow. What a surprising outcome... unless one actually believed that those obsessive stalking haters represented the whole audience...
    But the funniest part? The movie you don't see such a lukewarm "audience support" right there, Aquaman, made the most money by far. And the critic darling, Shazam, made less than Thor did in freaking 2011.

    When I was talking about the narratives that got out of hand? This is exactly what I was talking about.


    (apparently you can't post more than 3 images on this site, so I'll try to manage it in other posts)
    Last edited by adamTPTK; 07-01-2020 at 07:15 AM.

  10. #8185
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    Cinemascore:





    Metacritic:

    11.jpg12.jpg10.jpg



    Alright, I think I figured how to add all of the data in here lol took me completely by surprise the fact that I couldn't upload more than 3 images.
    Last edited by adamTPTK; 07-01-2020 at 03:13 AM.

  11. #8186
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Have you looked at the credits for Wonder Woman? Snyder was the producer, and was the person responsible for casting Gal Gadot and for getting Patty Jenkins as director. Wonder Woman is arguably as much of a Snyder film as Suicide Squad.
    "Producer" means nothing, he could be sitting on a couch when other people did all the work for all we know, that's how worthless that title is in Hollywood. He gets a story credit, but the film itself is hardly how he'd have directed it. The fact he got those people involved, which I give him credit for, is not disproving the MCU's with what they did with those roles once he left the building. Neither of those two in the movie acted like they were in a Snyder film once the cameras rolled.

    Has it had no influence? Certainly not. But I think that influence and inspiration has more to do with how the DCEU movies were set up to tie together strongly towards Justice League, not necessarily on the individual movies.

    Because neither the MCU nor the DCEU has been particularly innovative here. Where the MCU has excelled is in the execution and branding side.
    I'm relieved you agree, but its influence is still tampered down when there's a boatload of influence in Aquaman and Wonder Woman which can't be denied. I wasn't talking about Justice League or how the movies are in a shared universe, either. On that they haven't mimicked how Marvel does it. Deadpool is a big influence on Harley, it could be argued Guardians was an influence on Suicide Squad, especially in the marketing - but I don't think Shazam is influenced by them.

  12. #8187
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    Oh shit.
    Last edited by Amadeus Arkham; 07-01-2020 at 10:09 AM.
    "I love mankind...it's people I can't stand!!"

    - Charles Schultz.

  13. #8188
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Whedon was definitely the wrong person to put in charge of JL and you definitely did not need to see how terrible his version of Batman was to find Johns fingerprints all over it.
    Its funny how a decade ago Whedon could do no wrong and now he's viewed as a pariah
    What a difference 10 years makes

  14. #8189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus Arkham View Post


    Oh shit.
    i’m really glad this is coming out, and I’m really tired of all the white dudes online who feel eager to silence a black man’s story they know absolutely nothing about, just because they don’t support the SC

  15. #8190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    you definitely did not need to see how terrible his version of Batman was to find Johns fingerprints all over it.
    I'm curious what you mean by this. I've never read a Johns written Batman, was JL Batman similar?

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