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  1. #12061
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    DC's also done a lot damage by adapting the Zeus origin for her movie and making it the prevailing origin for her for the general audience.
    I don't think there's anything damaging to Wonder Woman in the Zeus origin. It doesn't change the character, doesn't have an affect on the stories she can do, or how she acts. There's other things that can damage Wonder Woman - this though doesn't damage her at all. It just annoys more traditionalist/purist fans.

  2. #12062
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veni View Post
    This. Making her Zeus's daughter really tarnished Wonder Woman. WW84 made things even worse by making her a rapist ( just like Zeus).
    I haven't seen the movie yet (waiting for the DVD to go dirt cheap after reading reviews), but I doubt that Diana as a rapist is because of the Zeus origin and would instead blame terrible, terrible, terrible writing and a complete misunderstanding of the character. It doesn't matter what her origin is, clay or demigod, nothing justifies her committing rape. That's out of character, regardless of if she has a dad or not (or who that dad is).

  3. #12063
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I don't think there's anything damaging to Wonder Woman in the Zeus origin. It doesn't change the character, doesn't have an affect on the stories she can do, or how she acts. There's other things that can damage Wonder Woman - this though doesn't damage her at all. It just annoys more traditionalist/purist fans.
    The best thing about the Zeus origin is when they mention it as little as they possibly can .

  4. #12064
    Incredible Member Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    I like my Diana sculpted from clay, the Gods breathing life into her as their champion.

  5. #12065
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I don't think there's anything damaging to Wonder Woman in the Zeus origin. It doesn't change the character, doesn't have an affect on the stories she can do, or how she acts. There's other things that can damage Wonder Woman - this though doesn't damage her at all. It just annoys more traditionalist/purist fans.
    Says the dude arguing against race swapping a couple of pages back.

    WW being Zeus daughter is an absolutely unnecessary change and green lit by people who didn't understand her mythology. It would be like changing Krypton or Crime Alley from their respective heroes origins.
    Just because one personally does not get it does not mean that others don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veni View Post
    This. Making her Zeus's daughter really tarnished Wonder Woman. WW84 made things even worse by making her a rapist ( just like Zeus). DC needs to return her clay origin back. As for Cassie, a better origin for her is to be the daughter of a goddess and a human. I won't object to making Cassie of Greek ethnicity since the name Cassandra is Greek. Donna should have her Pre-Crisis origin back.
    Agreed on all counts.

  6. #12066
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    The best thing about the Zeus origin is when they mention it as little as they possibly can .
    To be fair, that sentence can just as easily be applied to the clay origin as well - that part of the mythos isn't important. Clay or Zeus, her birth is the least important aspect of her origin story. It's everything else, growing up on Paradise Island, Steve Trevor, coming to Man's World.

  7. #12067
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I don't think there's anything damaging to Wonder Woman in the Zeus origin. It doesn't change the character, doesn't have an affect on the stories she can do, or how she acts. There's other things that can damage Wonder Woman - this though doesn't damage her at all. It just annoys more traditionalist/purist fans.
    The whole fantasy of Wonder Woman is that she was created by pure female spirit and ingenuity. She was the fusion of the technology of the amazons with the blessing of Aphrodite, the goddess of love. She is a woman made by women, raised by women, that never met a man before reaching adulthood, and thus never had to think about her gender in any way. Not only that, she was specifically designed to be the ideal woman, sculpted under the desire of her mother. Her whole being is a grand design, and she finds her own independence from this design by choosing to go to man's world. Her being born of Zeus destroys both sides of the fantasy.

  8. #12068
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    I like my Diana sculpted from clay, the Gods breathing life into her as their champion.
    Her best origin to be certain.

  9. #12069
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Says the dude arguing against race swapping a couple of pages back.
    Please, don't. Don't even try and use that sort of tactic against me. It's disingenuous and beneath the standards of any good faith or friendly debates. If you really want me to argue why it's different we can go down that route, but the sarcastic "says you" line is basically a veiled sort of sneer or insult that I'd rather not engage in for any debate.

    WW being Zeus daughter is an absolutely unnecessary change and green lit by people who didn't understand her mythology.
    Agreed, but while unnecessary it's not an important aspect of the mythos. Wonder Woman doesn't go on and on about how she was sculpted from clay.

    It would be like changing Krypton or Crime Alley from their respective heroes origins.
    No, it's really not. It would most likely be more equivalent to making Clark's parents politicians or celebrities over scientists, or Bruce's parents getting killed in a stabbing instead of a shooting. Those changes would change nothing. I couldn't care less if Clark's parents were celebrities who spent their wealth to buy a rocket for their baby instead of scientists who built it. It wouldn't matter if Joe Chill stabbed Thomas and Martha Wayne, it changes nothing about the narrative.

    Just because one personally does not get it does not mean that others don't.
    Just because one thinks it's something to get, doesn't mean it is so.

    I'm not arguing that the Zeus change is better. I'm only arguing that it's not damaging. That it's not the most important aspect of the mythos, nor that it's important to who she is. Besides tradition, what does it change?

  10. #12070
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    The whole fantasy of Wonder Woman is that she was created by pure female spirit and ingenuity. She was the fusion of the technology of the amazons with the blessing of Aphrodite, the goddess of love. She is a woman made by women, raised by women, that never met a man before reaching adulthood, and thus never had to think about her gender in any way. Not only that, she was specifically designed to be the ideal woman, sculpted under the desire of her mother. Her whole being is a grand design, and she finds her own independence from this design by choosing to go to man's world. Her being born of Zeus destroys both sides of the fantasy.
    I'd argue that the whole fantasy is not how she was created - it's how she was raised. She was born into and raised by a matriarchal and feminist society free of the influence and sins of man, who chose to come to man's world to show them a better way. That's the core of the whole Wonder Woman mythos and origin. The rest is secondary to that. The clay aspect is just like the tournament aspect - there's a reason her films, animated and live action, skipped over her needing to win a tournament before leaving the island.

  11. #12071
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Again, just because you don't get it or it doesn't matter to you, does not mean that it's the same for others. Diana being entirely a product of an all female society does matter.

  12. #12072
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Again, just because you don't get it or it doesn't matter to you, does not mean that it's the same for others. Diana being entirely a product of an all female society does matter.
    I agree - we just differ on whether her parentage changes the product of an all female society or not. I don't think it does change that aspect - you do. We agree on the fundamental part of the female society shaping who Wonder Woman is, we disagree if Zeus as an absentee daddy changes that.

  13. #12073
    Extraordinary Member Gaius's Avatar
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    The Zeus origin was bad.

    All there really is to it.
    Last edited by Gaius; 05-10-2021 at 08:14 PM.

  14. #12074
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    To be fair, that sentence can just as easily be applied to the clay origin as well - that part of the mythos isn't important. Clay or Zeus, her birth is the least important aspect of her origin story. It's everything else, growing up on Paradise Island, Steve Trevor, coming to Man's World.
    The clay birth being replaced by having a father undermines some of the important themes of Wonder Woman, namely avoiding patriarchal narratives and an aversion of the "Never a Self Made Woman" trope (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...SelfMadeWoman- the New 52 alteration is even listed here). Parental narratives in DC comics, and mainstream comics in general, put all their emphasis on the fathers and never the mothers. An all female creation between Hippolyta and various combos of goddesses bringing the clay to life and Hippolyta and the Amazons raising her and instilling their values was unique and important. The 1940s version was also somehow more progressive than contemporary versions because she was entirely self empowered through Amazon training, and later versions at least had her empowered by female deities.

    Making her powerful through a blood connection to Zeus undermines her completely. It defines her through her connection to a man, which completely misses the point. What's worse, he completely upstages Hippolyta as the important parental figure by his mere presence. I'd say Steve Trevor is more expendable to her classic origin than the clay birth is in how it contributes to her themes (and I say this as someone who likes Steve and doesn't like it when he's removed). The first movie got enough else right that it was still a good movie despite that. WW84 largely didn't touch on her origin either way, and it's kind of bad that the Zeus origin can only work when they don't even even talk about it (aside from the cringe worthy explanation for the invisible plane). Maybe giving her a father can work, but it should never be Zeus. Doesn't help that Hippolyta was barren in the New 52 and Zeus fixed her with his thunder dick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    The Zeus origin was bad.

    When DC makes the Kents rural inbred Klansmen and the Waynes BFFs with the DC Universe equivalent of Jeffrey Epstein, is when the Zeus origin should be accepted for Diana.

    All there really is to it.
    Agreed, though to be fair look what Joker did to Thomas Wayne. Even with the Zeus origin, Hippolyta probably fared the best of of the Trinity parents recently in film
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 05-10-2021 at 07:06 PM.

  15. #12075
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Well, you're certainly free to lean that way. Doesn't change that all signs point to a race swapped Clark. Every article written has been assuming it's Clark, the way everyone interviewed about it says things that only make sense if it's a black Clark Kent. The only possible evidence that they aren't race changing Clark is the fact that they haven't come out and actually said "It's a black Clark y'all." And that's probably only a matter of time.
    Keep in mind, all these articles are just citing the same source. I've done some investigative work before, both for these pop culture stories and even in an academic setting, and misinformation can travel pretty fast.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

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