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  1. #12076
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    The Zeus origin was bad.

    When DC makes the Kents rural inbred Klansmen and the Waynes BFFs with the DC Universe equivalent of Jeffrey Epstein and DC trouts this out like a point of pride, is when the Zeus origin should be accepted for Diana.

    All there really is to it.
    No, there's not - comparing a mythological ancient figure to real world bigots and recent sexual predator is just...yeah, no.
    Seriously, holy fuck man, Epstein???

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The clay birth being replaced by having a father undermines some of the important themes of Wonder Woman, namely avoiding patriarchal narratives and an aversion of the "Never a Self Made Woman" trope (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...SelfMadeWoman- the New 52 alteration is even listed here). Parental narratives in DC comics, and mainstream comics in general, put all their emphasis on the fathers and never the mothers. An all female creation between Hippolyta and various combos of goddesses bringing the clay to life and Hippolyta and the Amazons raising her and instilling their values was unique and important. The 1940s version was also somehow more progressive than contemporary versions because she was entirely self empowered through Amazon training, and later versions at least had her empowered by female deities.

    Making her powerful through a blood connection to Zeus undermines her completely. It defines her through her connection to a man, which completely misses the point. What's worse, he completely upstages Hippolyta as the important parental figure by his mere presence. I'd say Steve Trevor is more expendable to her classic origin than the clay birth is in how it contributes to her themes (and I say this as someone who likes Steve and doesn't like it when he's removed). The first movie got enough else right that it was still a good movie despite that. WW84 largely didn't touch on her origin either way, and it's kind of bad that the Zeus origin can only work when they don't even even talk about it (aside from the cringe worthy explanation for the invisible plane). Maybe giving her a father can work, but it should never be Zeus. Doesn't help that Hippolyta was barren in the New 52 and Zeus fixed her with his thunder dick.
    I'm sorry, but I just don't agree. The narrative of Wonder Woman is shaped not by her birth but by her childhood. The live action film proved that - nothing was lost, Wonder Woman wasn't changed because of that detail. We saw her in Themyscira as a child, we saw her training, we saw the women in her life. We saw what made her who she was. And suddenly that was thrown away at the end of the film when we discovered Zeus was the sperm donor? I just can't buy that. I saw the film, and that change didn't harm Wonder Woman.
    Now 84 on the other hand...

    Agreed, though to be fair look what Joker did to Thomas Wayne. Even with the Zeus origin, Hippolyta probably fared the best of of the Trinity parents recently in film
    What Joker did with Thomas Wayne is fine, and what Man of Steel did with Johnathan Kent is fine. Just like Zeus, it caused no damage to their heroes. The Trinity's parentage isn't the important aspect of their characters - even if Thomas was a dick, it doesn't change Bruce's grief and rage seeing his parents killed. If Johnathan is morally debating whether his child should save a bus full of children vs keeping Clark safe doesn't change who Superman becomes, and Wonder Woman discovering that no she wasn't made out of magic clay she has a father like everyone else on earth doesn't change the fact she was raised, shaped, and molded by strong women in her life. Origin stories are important, but fans today are too attached to the small details over the important character beats that form who these heroes are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Keep in mind, all these articles are just citing the same source. I've done some investigative work before, both for these pop culture stories and even in an academic setting, and misinformation can travel pretty fast.
    True. But there's literally nothing to suggest they're doing anything other than race bending Clark. They're not blind, they know what's going on in the rumor mill/blogosphere/online. They could say "it's not Clark" - unless of course, they can't because it is.

  2. #12077
    Extraordinary Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Edit: Removed by poster.
    Last edited by Gaius; 05-10-2021 at 08:13 PM.

  3. #12078
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    True. But there's literally nothing to suggest they're doing anything other than race bending Clark. They're not blind, they know what's going on in the rumor mill/blogosphere/online. They could say "it's not Clark" - unless of course, they can't because it is.
    WB wouldn't even admit The Batman was a reboot for the longest time. Most companies won't say something till they have too. Like, I'm not even sure where this black superman claim came from, but I don't think it came from WB (I haven't really looked into it though, could be wrong).
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

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  4. #12079
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    DC's the one who made one biggest rapists in world mythology Diana's father (who btw has tried to rape Diana in previous stories as well) while chucking out her origin that worked fine for 70 years. You're arguing adding Zeus changes nothing about her, so to flip that around if that's the case what's the point of changing it in the first place.

    Like I said, all there is to it.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Zeus doesn't really exist though, but there are real world victims of Epstein, so...¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    (seriously, it just seems a step to far bringing real world rapists of real underage girls into discussions of fictional cartoon people, if you disagree, fine, but I'm not getting into that debate)
    (seriously, this "¯\_(ツ)_/¯" about a fucking real world rapist like Epstein is too damn nonchalant man)
    (seriously I'm questioning if there's something wrong with you, like that's all there is to it.)
    Last edited by Vakanai; 05-10-2021 at 07:58 PM.

  5. #12080
    Extraordinary Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Zeus doesn't really exist though, but there are real world victims of Epstein, so...¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    (seriously, it just seems a step to far bringing real world rapists of real underage girls into discussions of fictional cartoon people, if you disagree, fine, but I'm not getting into that debate)
    (seriously, this "¯\_(ツ)_/¯" about a fucking real world rapist like Epstein is too damn nonchalant man)
    (seriously I'm questioning if there's something wrong with you, like that's all there is to it.)
    My apologies. You're right that it was uncalled for.

  6. #12081
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    My apologies. You're right that it was uncalled for.
    It's okay, like I said in the pm I probably overreacted a bit, but the real world nature of Epstein's crimes just...brings out a strong reaction in me. It shocked me, but cooling down I know you didn't mean anything bad by it. It's kind of like detective fiction vs true crime. I love stories about fictional serial killers and murderers and the like on TV, but I can't sit for long through a relatively tame true crime documentary without getting too squicked out.

  7. #12082
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    To be fair, that sentence can just as easily be applied to the clay origin as well - that part of the mythos isn't important. Clay or Zeus, her birth is the least important aspect of her origin story. It's everything else, growing up on Paradise Island, Steve Trevor, coming to Man's World.
    Well, at least with the clay origin it doesn't really run as counter to the themes of the mythos and Themyscira as the Zeus origin, but I may be biased because the stuff that does focus on the Zeus origin never really does a lot of good for Diana and that more or less ends up being the one sticking point with it.

  8. #12083
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    The problem with the Zeus origin is it takes a character who was originally matriarchal based (her powers came from her mother/the goddesses) and making it patriarchal instead (now she’s the strongest Amazon because of her father). For a character like WW who is steeped in feminist ideology that sucks. It misses the point that WW is all about subverting the traditional male-focused mythos of the Greeks.
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  9. #12084
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, at least with the clay origin it doesn't really run as counter to the themes of the mythos and Themyscira as the Zeus origin, but I may be biased because the stuff that does focus on the Zeus origin never really does a lot of good for Diana and that more or less ends up being the one sticking point with it.
    I think that's the problem - stuff that focuses on that origin. I feel the origin is fine - I think the focus on it ever since and the more mythological/godly angle hasn't been fine. If you don't like the direction it's taken because of that, then it makes sense wanting to blame all of that on the origin. But you could just as easily have gone down some version of that road even with the clay origin. At the end, it bad writing more than it is bad origin that's the problem in my opinion.

    It's like Batman. His origin is fine - but seeing flashbacks of his parents dying and having all his inner monologue getting wrapped up in that gets frustrating. DC needs to just weed origin mentions and references out of stories for a few years or so.

  10. #12085
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    The problem with the Zeus origin is it takes a character who was originally matriarchal based (her powers came from her mother/the goddesses) and making it patriarchal instead (now she’s the strongest Amazon because of her father). For a character like WW who is steeped in feminist ideology that sucks. It misses the point that WW is all about subverting the traditional male-focused mythos of the Greeks.
    This is the only argument against the Zeus origin that resonates with me. Although it still relies too heavily on the symbology of things for my tastes - I prefer more plot/story arguments over symbolism. Can't tell you why, but as time has worn on lately I've gotten more and more tired of symbolism and ideology. I can't pin why, but it's just something I've noticed becoming more of an irritant. Characterization and plot has become my main concern in these sorts of discussions. It's more important to me that Diana's characterization works, while her symbolism is less important. And not just Diana - Bruce, Clark, all of fiction in general. Get them done proper in plot and character and we're good, symbolism is a distant third or fourth. But I can understand how the symbolism is more important for some fans.

    Ultimately the Zeus origin is only worse by symbolism. I can respect some people's need for that. But...it doesn't matter to me. I went from someone who was often oblivious to symbolism, to someone who intentionally glazes over it.

  11. #12086
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    This is the only argument against the Zeus origin that resonates with me. Although it still relies too heavily on the symbology of things for my tastes - I prefer more plot/story arguments over symbolism. Can't tell you why, but as time has worn on lately I've gotten more and more tired of symbolism and ideology. I can't pin why, but it's just something I've noticed becoming more of an irritant. Characterization and plot has become my main concern in these sorts of discussions. It's more important to me that Diana's characterization works, while her symbolism is less important. And not just Diana - Bruce, Clark, all of fiction in general. Get them done proper in plot and character and we're good, symbolism is a distant third or fourth. But I can understand how the symbolism is more important for some fans.

    Ultimately the Zeus origin is only worse by symbolism. I can respect some people's need for that. But...it doesn't matter to me. I went from someone who was often oblivious to symbolism, to someone who intentionally glazes over it.
    I really enjoyed the Azz WW run so I’m something of a hypocrite . Personally as long as the emphasis is still on Diana’s relationship with her mother and sisters being far more important to the plots I can deal with Zeus being her dad.
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  12. #12087
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I really enjoyed the Azz WW run so I’m something of a hypocrite . Personally as long as the emphasis is still on Diana’s relationship with her mother and sisters being far more important to the plots I can deal with Zeus being her dad.
    Exactly - it's not her DNA that's her origin, its her relationships. Wonder Woman was raised by strong women - Superman by a kindly farming couple with midwestern values - Bruce by loving parents who he saw shot down. Things like clay vs Zeus, the depiction of Krypton, the weapon the mugger uses, doesn't matter.

    Here's something, I think. Bruce/Batman kind of had his version of the Zeus origin change - the was a time where Joe Killer was revealed not to be some random mugger, but hired to kill the Wayne's. It was a hit. Changing it from a random crime or act of violence to intentional, organized crime changes the symbolical mythos just as much as Zeus does for WW. Instead of his mythos saying crime could happen to anyone, it became something that could only happen to a rich family like his who somehow crossed the mob.
    And I don't care. That doesn't change who Batman is. Doesn't change the stories. I'd be fine if that retcon came back in modern Batman stories. It's not damaging in the least.
    There's some Batman fans who would be pissed if that change was a part of modern Bruce's story. Just like there's Wonder Woman fans who are hung up on the Zeus origin. But to me, it doesn't change anything important. Heck, you could even show Thomas Wayne like he was in Joker on top of that and it'd still be fine.

    But that's just me. People are free to hate those sorts of changes all they want.

  13. #12088
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    The problem with the Zeus origin is it takes a character who was originally matriarchal based (her powers came from her mother/the goddesses) and making it patriarchal instead (now she’s the strongest Amazon because of her father). For a character like WW who is steeped in feminist ideology that sucks. It misses the point that WW is all about subverting the traditional male-focused mythos of the Greeks.
    Yeah, Diana deserves better than being Zeus' daughter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I really enjoyed the Azz WW run so I’m something of a hypocrite . Personally as long as the emphasis is still on Diana’s relationship with her mother and sisters being far more important to the plots I can deal with Zeus being her dad.
    I don't disagree, but then it feels like it becomes about ignoring the elephant in the room.

  14. #12089
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    The clay birth hasn't always been the origin of Wonder Woman (she had a father in the Silver Age) and in most adaptations, it doesn't seem to get mentioned. In the iconic tv show I don't think its mentioned, in the JL cartoon, it is heavily implied that Hades is WW's father, and in the movie, she has the Azz origin. There is a lot of different elements to Wonder Woman's origin story (The origin of the Amazons, clay birth, Steve Trevor, the contest, etc) and the most consistent seems to be Steve Trevor crash landing on the island and even that isn't 100% in everything (Its not for the JL cartoon). George Perez definitely emphasized the clay birth in his run (near the end, she gets turned back into clay by Circe) and that carried on throughout the Post-Crisis era (Devastation is made from clay, I think Genocide is too), but I don't think its canon now and hasn't been for 10 years.

    I do like the clay birth origin and prefer it to the Zeus origin, but its never been essential to the character and I don't see it as a moral failing that it's absent in the movie.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

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  15. #12090
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    The clay birth hasn't always been the origin of Wonder Woman (she had a father in the Silver Age) and in most adaptations, it doesn't seem to get mentioned. In the iconic tv show I don't think its mentioned, in the JL cartoon, it is heavily implied that Hades is WW's father, and in the movie, she has the Azz origin. There is a lot of different elements to Wonder Woman's origin story (The origin of the Amazons, clay birth, Steve Trevor, the contest, etc) and the most consistent seems to be Steve Trevor crash landing on the island and even that isn't 100% in everything (Its not for the JL cartoon). George Perez definitely emphasized the clay birth in his run (near the end, she gets turned back into clay by Circe) and that carried on throughout the Post-Crisis era (Devastation is made from clay, I think Genocide is too), but I don't think its canon now and hasn't been for 10 years.

    I do like the clay birth origin and prefer it to the Zeus origin, but its never been essential to the character and I don't see it as a moral failing that it's absent in the movie.
    Thank you, this is the best/logical post on this!

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