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  1. #12136
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    I mean, I personally have never been a huge fan of the 'endowment' explanation of her powers and it does require a bit more explanation (why did they choose WW? why can't they resolve these issues themselves?), not to mention you have to have them be a presence. The demigod origin allows you to get away with referencing the gods, but still not having them be characters in the story.
    You really don't have to have them be a presence though, and when the New 52 brought the demigod origin into place the Olympians became the A-plot and dominated the book. So that reasoning doesn't hold up based on what has been published.

    Explaining why Hippolyta would choose to sleep with a misogynistic abuser and rapist like Zeus requires a way bigger explanation than the goddesses providing blessings. They dish out blessings to mortals they like all the time in Greek myth. It's not a difficult thing for audiences to grasp at all.

  2. #12137
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Also I think the best comparison to Zeus being Dianaís father would be if Martha Wayne was revealed to have cheated and Bruce wasnít Thomasí son.

    And then if you want to rub more salt into that you could reveal she was having an affair with the man who killed them in the ally (I suddenly forgot his name). So Bruce was actually his kid all along.
    Considering how DC has been toying with making the Waynes (or at least Thomas) corrupt of late (Telltale, Damned, the lead into RIP having Dr. Hurt claim he was Thomas and orchestrated their deaths, etc) it probably isn't long before this sort of thing happens. I'm just hoping it's not going to be revealed Alfred was the one having the affair with Martha.

    DC is so obsessed with making their stories dark to add their coveted realism, which is itself just immense amounts of melodrama that appeals to edgy teens. An island of rad women? Nah, make them murder-rapists. Azzarello in particular is a warning to stay away from any book he writes at DC. His recent Birds of Prey book where Dinah let a friend relapse on drugs (DINAH of all characters?!) so she could participate in some marathon sex with random dudes.

    No character can simply have a happy childhood or come from good people except-- maybe-- Superman, and you know they're trying to find a way to kill the Kents again.

  3. #12138
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    They should just bite the bullet, learn whatever lessons they can from wherever BOP went wrong with audiences, and greenlight Gotham City Sirens.
    Making BoP R-rated guaranteed more than half of Harley's Hot Topic tween fans wouldn't be able to watch it in theatres. Talk about not knowing your audience. Also, the R-rated scenes in BoP felt incredibly shoehorned in simply to justify the rating. The film could have perfectly been pulled off with a PG-13.

    As for Gotham City Sirens, I don't know if WB would be interested in two Catwomen (if rumors are true that Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman might appear in Flashpoint too alongside Keaton's Batman, we may already have two Catwomen). I think a more simpler Thelma & Louise style Harley and Ivy film would be the better option for Robbie and co. at this point. Unless of course, Pfeiffer's Selina Kyle becomes a part of the main DCEU after Flashpoint and she's the one roped in for a Sirens film.

  4. #12139
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    I mean, I personally have never been a huge fan of the 'endowment' explanation of her powers and it does require a bit more explanation (why did they choose WW? why can't they resolve these issues themselves?), not to mention you have to have them be a presence. The demigod origin allows you to get away with referencing the gods, but still not having them be characters in the story.
    I think the only time the gods ever got involved in Greek myth was to deal out punishment to mortals that they feel wronged them personally. (at least after they created Mt. Olympus)

    But Daddy Zeus does seem to come with a side of dead Zeus since he always seems to be dead or missing since they retconned Diana’s origin.

  5. #12140
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    No character can simply have a happy childhood or come from good people except-- maybe-- Superman, and you know they're trying to find a way to kill the Kents again.
    riiiiight,the kents are the reason for clark's happiness.This why i hate the kents,els...etc."sky father this and earth father that".No,i don't think so.The kid would be doing pretty well even if he was brought up in an orphanage or warzone.Even if they remove the concept of sky parents and earth parents wholesale.Why?Because clark chooses a sunny and optimistic desposition.He would be happy even if the sky fell on him.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-12-2021 at 02:21 AM.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  6. #12141
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Making BoP R-rated guaranteed more than half of Harley's Hot Topic tween fans wouldn't be able to watch it in theatres. Talk about not knowing your audience. Also, the R-rated scenes in BoP felt incredibly shoehorned in simply to justify the rating. The film could have perfectly been pulled off with a PG-13.

    As for Gotham City Sirens, I don't know if WB would be interested in two Catwomen (if rumors are true that Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman might appear in Flashpoint too alongside Keaton's Batman, we may already have two Catwomen). I think a more simpler Thelma & Louise style Harley and Ivy film would be the better option for Robbie and co. at this point. Unless of course, Pfeiffer's Selina Kyle becomes a part of the main DCEU after Flashpoint and she's the one roped in for a Sirens film.
    I think a plot with Harley and Ivy on the run could be great. Maybe there’s a bounty on them and a lot of familiar DC assassins and villains are out to collect.

  7. #12142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    I think a plot with Harley and Ivy on the run could be great. Maybe there’s a bounty on them and a lot of familiar DC assassins and villains are out to collect.
    I would love that.

    I would also LOVE an adaptation of Girl's Night Out from the Batman Animated Series. Harley, Ivy, and Livewire are causing chaos, and Batgirl and Supergirl must stop them. Add in a Michael Keaton as an older Bruce Wayne in the film, and I think you have an easy $750 million box office and a ton of merchandise and Halloween costumes sold.

    As someone who actually likes the Birds of Prey film, I'll say that I thought the biggest misstep was that it just felt small and like a streaming film. I think making Gotham City Sirens more of an event and give the makeup and costuming team a budget to actually make the characters look glamourous - I'm not saying sexy but glamourous - and I think it could absolutely take over the box office in August or October.

  8. #12143
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post
    Maybe because Wonder Woman as a franchisee was very exclusionary. Only women, very little to no POC... definitely needed a change up. Itís obviously here to stay now so complaining wonít change much.

    I just donít get how Wonder Woman fans complain about any male inclusion in her mythos (from villains, to support cast...etc) while Bat/Super/Flash/Lantern/Aqua fans more than welcome females into the mythos.
    Did the Zeus origin make her mythology more inclusive?

    They only started pushing Nubia very recently and that was well after Rucka paved over Azzarello's book with Rebirth. Pre-Flashpoint the WW mythos had Phillipus, Grace Choi (who was folded into Diana's mythos) and male characters like Fernidad, Tom Tressor, Achillies, a whole group of male Amazons and there weren't complaints about them. Maybe they should have built them up more instead of flushing her mythology down the drain?

    People don't complain about male inclusion in WW mythos, they only complain about *how* they are included. Sigfried is a recent character appearing in WW's books and fans like him so far. People complain about Zeus because the way he was included throws her mythos out of orbit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Its more about mainstreaming Wonder Woman's mythology and there is some simplifying to it as well. The clay origin has never actually been the reason for Wonder Woman's super powers (in the Golden Age, she got her powers through amazon training), but having her be a demi-god does explain her powers. The mainstream culture also gets the idea of a demi-god and most 'Greek mythology' media features them.

    Its part of a similar trend we see elsewhere; In the Golden Age, Aphrodite (referred to as the Goddess of Love) was the only patron to the Amazons, but in the wider culture Aphrodite is a minor, support goddess, so she got replaced by Athena. Hercules is a bad guy in the original stories, but in pop culture, he's a good guy so he is often depicted in a lot of WW as a good guy too. Zeus as a character didn't even appear until the final issue of WW Vol #1, during Crisis of Infinite Earths, yet now, in Post-Crisis he was kind of a major supporting character.
    Stripping a character of what makes her unique and turning her into another generic off spring of Zeus does not do her any favors nor does it really fix anything. It's DC trying to fix whats not broken.

    WW is a perspective flip on common Greek mythos. The clay birth is a twist on the classic Galatea myth, only instead of an ancient incel bringing to life his ideal girlfriend, it's a mother fulfilling her yearning by sculpting an ideal child from clay. Diana being borne of clay is a symbolic and visual metaphor for her being born, shaped and raised by an all female society. Her powers were granted to her by the Greek Gods. There is nothing complicated about that part. Heracles being a villain instead of a celebrated hero and Ares being the Big Bad instead of the jobber he is in Greek mythos is another example of the perspective flip that the WW stories do.

  9. #12144
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Did the Zeus origin make her mythology more inclusive?

    They only started pushing Nubia very recently and that was well after Rucka paved over Azzarello's book with Rebirth. Pre-Flashpoint the WW mythos had Phillipus, Grace Choi (who was folded into Diana's mythos) and male characters like Fernidad, Tom Tressor, Achillies, a whole group of male Amazons and there weren't complaints about them. Maybe they should have built them up more instead of flushing her mythology down the drain?

    People don't complain about male inclusion in WW mythos, they only complain about *how* they are included. Sigfried is a recent character appearing in WW's books and fans like him so far. People complain about Zeus because the way he was included throws her mythos out of orbit
    Yes, Gail Simone introduced a new race of all male warriors lead by Achilles who ended up siding with the Amazons, and possibly building up to a unified nation. This was blasted in favor of the New 52 where we had unsympathetic Amazons whose motivations were glossed over* and actively showed them victimizing men and abandoning their sons, and the sons raised by Hephaestus were more sympathetic. So an all female race has to be bad/have skeletons in the closet and the all male race are benevolent? As a cis male reader, this isn't something that I was clamoring for or interested in.

    *Morrison in Earth One did an overall bad job with the Amazons' attitudes in the first volume, but they at least showed a flashback of Hercules and his men attempting to enslave them. So their wariness of men can be understandable to an extent. It's very flawed, but still more than we got out of Azzarello and his man hating Amazons.

  10. #12145
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    I vastly prefer her clay origin, given powers by the goddesses. I mean how many characters in fiction are sons or daughters of gods? How many in DC itself? The clay thing is unique, and gives more of her own agency than being the daughter of some god or other.

  11. #12146
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    Man, can people just let up on Gal Gadot? This is disgusting IMO; the response to her innocuous Tweet asking for peace. Those people are sick IMO, and need help.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/ga...el/ar-BB1gFzcG

  12. #12147
    Amazing Member Gitagon's Avatar
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    Some online vitriol compared to people who are dying and have had their land stolen from them? This is just some internet heat. Gadot is a Zionist and she always finds times like these to make these pro-Israel statements.

    I've never forgotten her post in 2014 right after those kids got bombed while playing on a Beach. It was sickening that she could even make a post like that especially when holding her own kid.

    Being roasted online and getting your feelings hurt that people don't like you for supporting an Apartheid state can never be compared to the actual suffering happening on the ground.

    Personally, I'm just hoping she gets recast after WW3. So far Momoa and Cavill were like the only dudes without issues in JL and now Cavill is gone.

    Affleck - sexual assault. Protecting rap*st brother.

    Heard - I don't comment on the Depp issue since people always get heated on who is innocent or guilty but she had another battery case with her ex-girlfriend that she got arrested for.

    Leto - p*do allegations, even from prominent celebrities.

    Miller - assault on camera

    These guys are playing the JL and I'm not asking for them to be as virtuous as the actual JL but they shouldn't have issues like this.
    Last edited by Gitagon; 05-12-2021 at 09:15 PM.

  13. #12148
    Mighty Member Samm's Avatar
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    The Snyderverse actors really are full of controversy huh? I think only Cavil and Mamoa, so far, have escaped the controversy. Honestly though, I don’t see anything wrong with what Gal said. I would have worded it more harshly, attack someone with rockets, expect retaliation!

  14. #12149
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    The Snyderverse actors really are full of controversy huh? I think only Cavil and Mamoa, so far, have escaped the controversy. Honestly though, I don’t see anything wrong with what Gal said. I would have worded it more harshly, attack someone with rockets, expect retaliation!
    Cavil got pulled into some heat because he use to date Gina Carano a while back, but that died down pretty fast for obvious reasons.

    As for what Gal said...It’s all very, very complicated, and something I myself do not want to get to far into due to the awareness of my own ignorance on the subject.

    But, I believe the biggest point on controversy in her message was referring to the Palestinians as “neighbors” as opposed to Palestinians. The U.S. does not recognize Palestine as a state, which has caused much controversy, since it might very well be the first step towards a lasting peace as it would established permanent boarders and stop Israel’s invasion of Palestine, but in turn would mean recognizing the parts of Palestine that are occupied by the Hamas terrorist organization, which would mean legitimizing that territories organization.

    Again, it is all very complicated. And there is more to it than that, but that is what I believe is the cause of controversy surrounding the tweet. And again, I myself am not too well informed on the subject, something which I may have to change since this conflict could be the start of America getting involved in another war.
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 05-13-2021 at 04:24 AM. Reason: Typo

  15. #12150
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post
    Maybe because Wonder Woman as a franchisee was very exclusionary. Only women, very little to no POC... definitely needed a change up. It’s obviously here to stay now so complaining won’t change much.

    I just don’t get how Wonder Woman fans complain about any male inclusion in her mythos (from villains, to support cast...etc) while Bat/Super/Flash/Lantern/Aqua fans more than welcome females into the mythos.
    The Wonder Woman comics have been racially diverse since the Perez comics when the clay origin was still used. I didn't see any major poc characters brought into the book during any of the New 52 runs other than Hestia who was mostly in the Superman/Wonder Woman book and was really just a shallow replacement for Nubia and Philippus (and in fact they whitewashed her most notable non-white villain, Dr Poison). The WW comics have also had sympathetic and heroic male characters before the New 52 as well. The Zeus origin "fixed" a problem that never existed in the first place.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 05-13-2021 at 04:29 AM.

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