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  1. #8236
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    He did with Sucker Punch.
    If he did, it hasn't been as noteworthy as Whedon nor has he done anything as hypocritical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Years ago I remember there as a beef with a stunt choreography on Buffy and an allegation was that Whedon somehow hacked staff emails and reading them, but nothing came of it. How Charisma's pregnancy was responded to was childish and stupid, I lost respect for Whedon over that. The thing is that just because something hasn't come up with Snyder doesn't mean it won't, maybe he's a saint in the work place or it just hasn't been his turn. Everyone thought Whedon was fine until he wasn't.
    There's no need to speculate about Snyder. Until there's smoke, let's hold off on calling "fire." Whedon has had smoke before this.

    We can think his movie's are dumb, but it shouldn't go beyond that without any legit good reasons. Of which there aren't any.

  2. #8237
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    If he did, it hasn't been as noteworthy as Whedon nor has he done anything as hypocritical.
    I was simply addressing that Snyder has made Feminism a big part of his productions before. His creative choices for discussing Feminism in Sucker Punch was a big reason why it was controversial.



    There's no need to speculate about Snyder. Until there's smoke, let's hold off on calling "fire." Whedon has had smoke before this.

    We can think his movie's are dumb, but it shouldn't go beyond that without any legit good reasons. Of which there aren't any.
    I'm not saying anything definite about Snyder, only that holding him up too high risks getting burned when people are dropping like flies over harassment and being terrible in media has become common place now. Don't idolise people they'll let you down. That's why my last sentence is important, everything is fine until it's not - and the "not" part is impossible to predict.

  3. #8238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Fisher’s Cyborg has John's all over it.
    Geoff Johns did Cyborg horribly during the New 52, he only had one big moment during his entire run with the Forever Evil storyline with the Metal Men. Nothing else was done with the character, he was just there and now the character is static because they can’t put him back in Titans, he never truly fit in with the JL dynamic and his solo series were never properly invested in so now we have character whose only real purpose is to be a token.

  4. #8239
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    Something tells me that if this were a story about Snyder being abusive, the people defending Whedon would be singing a very different tune even if the accusations were just as vague.

  5. #8240
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Fisher’s Cyborg has John's all over it.
    Doesn't that mean by proxy it was basically Wolfman's Cyborg?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr HardKnocks View Post
    Geoff Johns did Cyborg horribly during the New 52, he only had one big moment during his entire run with the Forever Evil storyline with the Metal Men. Nothing else was done with the character, he was just there and now the character is static because they can’t put him back in Titans, he never truly fit in with the JL dynamic and his solo series were never properly invested in so now we have character whose only real purpose is to be a token.
    Cyborg had moments in Thrones of Atlantis and Darkseid War.

  6. #8241
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think the key difference is that Snyder doesn't really puff himself up and feed into the hype of being some uber feminist creator. So there are less expectations and instances of being a hypocrite when the writing doesn't land. Joss created one truly great female main character (Buffy) and surrounded her with some great female supporting characters and villains she had complicated relationships with. But even her he sort of undermined by prioritizing the arc of her sexual assaulter over her in her own damn show. Plus all the female characters he fridged over in Angel. Or the original plans for Innara in Firefly.

    If all this is legit, plus stuff like his treatment of Carpenter and the stuff his ex-wife said, he comes across as a worse person than Snyder. I've soured on Snyder as a creator, but none of the actors he's worked with have given any indication he's difficult to work with or does creepy things as a person.
    Maybe because Snyder is happyly married and had children of his own. Now we have 2 directors, one is a allegedly a horrible person but an acclaimed filmmaker, one is mediocre at his job but a nice guy (I can relate to the last one)

  7. #8242
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    ...

    I'm not saying anything definite about Snyder, only that holding him up too high risks getting burned when people are dropping like flies over harassment and being terrible in media has become common place now. Don't idolise people they'll let you down. That's why my last sentence is important, everything is fine until it's not - and the "not" part is impossible to predict.
    Is there an actual instance of that happening in this thread?

  8. #8243
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Joss Whedon and Zach Snyder are kind of interesting, since they both functioned as creative leads in expanded universes and stepped down. Zach Snyder is supposedly the one that was bad and made bad movies, yet his films have such a large fanbase they were able to push to complete a project of his and his films still spark discussion and debate more than half a decade afterwards. Joss Whedon is the good one who made good films and yet he was pretty much abandoned after his Avengers films, which themselves don't inspire much discussion.
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  9. #8244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Joss Whedon and Zach Snyder are kind of interesting, since they both functioned as creative leads in expanded universes and stepped down. Zach Snyder is supposedly the one that was bad and made bad movies, yet his films have such a large fanbase they were able to push to complete a project of his and his films still spark discussion and debate more than half a decade afterwards. Joss Whedon is the good one who made good films and yet he was pretty much abandoned after his Avengers films, which themselves don't inspire much discussion.
    What differs is that the MCU emulated and perfected what Whedon did, with one film being the capstone of Phase 1 and Age of Ultron being a medicare letdown except what he did in those films has forever changed the MCU, this is the opposite with Snyder's DCEU films. Snyder's movies were controversial, but they never reached the positive heights Whedon got. Discussion and debate aren't all good when it's about whether the characters you're adapting are monsters rather than heroes, with Whedon there's not much talk since everyone mostly agrees it's great and that the Russo's perfected what he did to another level and had more movies to talk about they didn't simply stop. Age of Ultron has discussions and people don't like many things in it, but it's really abandoned as much as he moved on and others took up his torch creatively while Snyder's was distanced from almost immediately. For example, the Batman in Suicide Squad is not the Batman we saw in B vs S, they retconned him into regular Batman and haven't looked back. His aesthetic has been left behind by every movie since Justice League. Discussion really isn't great if most of it is about how bad it is. Whedon wasn't abandoned, Snyder was.

  10. #8245
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus Arkham View Post


    Oh shit.
    The movie is kinda old and just now he decided to talk about the "abuse"?

    Also, the "Accountability>Entertainment" comment is pretty hypocrite. If these celebrities actually cared, they would have spoke up about the actual disgusting and messed up things going on in hollywood instead of targeting small guys who removing them would barely have any affect.
    Last edited by Rise; 07-02-2020 at 02:31 AM.
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
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  11. #8246
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Something tells me that if this were a story about Snyder being abusive, the people defending Whedon would be singing a very different tune even if the accusations were just as vague.
    To be fair, you would also have some pro-Snyder fans defending him regardless of the evidence. The most fanatical of the fandom have to stick to their agenda(s) through thick and thin.
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  12. #8247
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    The movie is kinda old and just now he decided to talk about the "abuse"?

    Also, the "Accountability>Entertainment" comment is pretty hypocrite. If these celebrities actually cared, they would have spoke up about the actual disgusting and messed up things going on in hollywood instead of targeting small guys who removing them would barely have any affect.
    Joss Whedon is hardly a "small guy" in Hollywood.

    Also, if there is one thing I've learned by observing how calling out abuse or harassment on racist or sexist lines, is that it often takes a long time between getting out from it to speaking in public about it—sometimes that time is forever. This is especially true when you are contractually obligated—like Fisher was—to participate in the marketing campaign for a movie.

    There is also a lot of pressure on actors in Hollywood where their careers depend on them being able to shut up and carry on.
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  13. #8248
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    Whedon has barely been relevent for years now and he has been "cancelled" long ago. So, he is currently a small guy in hollywood and the marketing excuse doesn't fly considering that the movie is old.

    I don't have hard time believing that the things weren't ok behind the scenes of JL since the entertainment industry as a whole is pretty rotten in its core, but Fisher seems to be only trying to get attention for himself and not to the problem (which is pretty tame compared to all the messed up things I heard about hollywood).
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
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  14. #8249
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    Credit to Avengers 3 and 4 really toning the humor down and localized it to the comic relief characters.
    Getting back to this for a moment.

    Hulk was serious in infinity war and he was only shown in mostly in the beginning.
    Thor was serious or mostly serious and critics and fans praise his talk with rocket raccoon.
    They both were only more comedic in thor 3 and endgame but there many serious moments in both films for them as well.
    In fact i think thor was happier in thor 1 on average and had more comedic moments then infinity war.

    I'm not against humor at all, but a lot of the MCU's humor seems out of place for the stories they're trying to tell. But if it's all in the name of fun and escapisim, I think many audience goers and critics give it a pass. Despite how awful a lot of the attempts at comedy are.
    I don't agree but anyway here some talk or other views about this.
    It's really interesting.

    Mark Hughes quote-
    Just generally speaking, keep in mind some of the all-time best action movies were also filled with humor and comedy -- Die Hard, Lethal Weapon, Mr. & Mrs. Smith, and Beverly Hills Cop for example. And think about some of the other great action films that also have a constant good sense of humor -- Raiders of the Lost Ark, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Lock Stock & Two Smoking Barrels, The Rock, and so on. These films don't just have one or two humorous lines, they have repeated funny moments and humor throughout, and as much or in some cases more than the MCU movies.

    Granted, a few MCU movies like Ant-Man, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Thor: Ragnarok have enough constant humor to possibly say they could be considered action-comedies, but the rest of the MCU films aren't. If some folks just personally don't enjoy comedy or humor very much and only usually like straight-up serious action, that's obviously totally fine and valid for people to have personal preferences and taste. But I think it's worth trying to be more precise about how much humor really exists in MCU films, since it's often overstated or people end up with a misperception sometimes of the overall MCU tone, and to also remember some of the all-time best and other great action films outside of the superhero genre often have a lot of humor and comedy in them too.

    Dark dceu films
    Burt Macklin10 hours ago
    Darkness is allowed in these movies. Tragedy happens to these people. It's about getting the tone right for the characters in those stories.

    Gallant Sector9 hours ago
    Dark tone is allowed in any movie the studio wants, but if the majority of the public that see these films don’t like the over all dark tone, for business reasons mostly they either lose out on money or course correct and please the majority.
    Tragic events happen in films/shows/comics that aren’t dark in tone.
    Batman overall look and feeling has always been dark.... but Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash.... nah.

    Burt Macklin8 hours ago
    Gallant Sector I didn't say the whole film had to be dark, but those characters have dark moments and they shouldn't have to gloss over that. Wonder Woman had the darkness of war, and that played beautifully. I'm saying there has to be a balance. I don't want jokes to cover tragedy. If something traumatic happens, let the moment happen and don't overcompensate with a joke simply because they're afraid of being too dark. That's all I mean.

    Gallant Sector8 hours ago

    Burt Macklin well that’s my point, they can have dark moments, that’s not going to register as a dark film, but when the mood of the entire film is dark like BvS and even Man Of Steel being darker than most of the Superman films before it...majority of people feel the movies are too dark.
    Zack Snyder makes films like that.
    But like I said, anything Batman people expect to be dark in tone. No one is complaining about that since the 80’s films.
    Wonder Woman did have some moments on the film, that War, and there you have it. More darkness.
    Some people love that, majority of people complained about it
    Jokes don’t take darkness out of a film, there are plenty of movie that are dark in tone and don’t have a ton of jokes, and plenty of dark comedies that have “dark” humor

    Burt Macklin8 hours ago
    Gallant Sector So my original comment still stands. And jokes can absolutely take you out of the moment. Marvel does that a lot. There's a serious moment they have to break with a joke. Justice League did it too. I'm not a fan of that. It's okay to show sadness or anger. Just keep it balanced.

    Gallant Sector8 hours ago
    Burt Macklin it’s all subjective...preference. The jokes take you of Of moments, it doesn’t work that way for me.
    As in your original comment, darkness is allowed in these films, yeah...I agree. Especially just some moments.
    Whatever the creators want to do is allowed, but all of the DC films lately been dark in tone completely. That’s the issue they had (I as well). Not all of DC comics or animated stories are dark, brooding and gloomy. Most of the films have been so far.

    Quote-
    Most dceu films have not been dark.SS,justice league and wonder woman are not dark dc films.The dc film green lantern(non dceu film) before that was not dark either and man of steel to some folks was not dark by the way.




    by James W quote-
    not much of a Marvel comic reader, but haven't they made Thor and Bruce Banner into comedians and Drax from a guy capable of killing Thanos in to guy who makes nipple jokes? Genuine question


    by Steven Fraser quote-
    James W Dunno anything about Drax, so I can't answer. As to the Thor and Banner point, I don't class them as "comedians" in the MCU. The comedy comes from Banner's exasperation at the situations he's put in and Thor's naivety/arrogance where he's being placed in situations where he's an outsider, a "fish out of water" as it were. It's not like they're cracking "jokes" per se, as much as their reactions to these situations where the comedy comes from. I don't recall any scene from either of these characters where they stop a scene to tell a "joke". The exact same " fish out of water" style is used for comedy throughout Wonder Woman too. These aren't "comedians"- its the ridiculousness of seeing a Norse God/Amazon react and relate to a world they have no understanding of, THAT'S where the comedy comes from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan
    Stop acting like MCU is only Ragnarok and GOTG. The Captain America and Avengers franchises are serious movies with some humor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tazirai
    Well that and the fact that Thor Ragnarok had a LOT of stakes.
    As did Guardians.
    Last edited by mace11; 07-02-2020 at 03:51 AM.

  15. #8250
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    This was posted before but i need to bring it back up.
    Dark And Gritty Vs Light And Fun - What Makes A Better Comic-Book Movie - The John Campea Podcast

    The talk starts around 30:30.
    Last edited by mace11; 07-02-2020 at 03:57 AM.

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