Page 914 of 1397 FirstFirst ... 4148148649049109119129139149159169179189249641014 ... LastLast
Results 13,696 to 13,710 of 20948
  1. #13696
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    34,005

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Johnson says he'd write a Superman in an origin story with relatable flaws. It isn't where Clark is in his life where Johnson is writing him now and he may not execute it in the way MOS did, but he didn't say Clark never has any flaws anywhere in his life.

    IDK, the DCEU defenders say any detractors just want a "boring, perfect Silver Age Superman", pretty much revealing they've never read that era of the character. Siting precedent for Snyder's decisions doesn't mean much either when taken on its own. It doesn't automatically lead to things being executed in a different story/medium well.
    The point is that defenders of the DCEU don't all think other versions of Superman are flawless (though I'd say that the Silver Age's version wasn't so much that he was flawed but that the writers didn't really seem to know he was flawed). And again, Johnson himself stated that he prefers Superman as a guy who makes few if any mistakes and is someone "we aspire to be" (see for instance his comment about Superman and Lois).

    Whether or not Snyder executed his ideas well is up for debate but it can't be denied that a large or at least very vocal segment of the Superman fandom felt it should not have been done at all.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 10-14-2021 at 08:17 AM.

  2. #13697
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    15,234

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The point is that defenders of the DCEU don't all think other versions of Superman are flawless (though I'd say that the Silver Age's version wasn't so much that he was flawed but that the writers didn't really seem to know he was flawed).
    It's not unique in that regard. That's usually how character flaws get picked up on by writers and fans, they may not begin as intentional but they are expanded upon and become consistent. In this case, it began as early as the Bronze Age with authors like Alan Moore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Whether or not Snyder executed his ideas well is up for debate but it can't be denied that a large or at least very vocal segment of the Superman fandom felt it should not have been done at all.
    Considering stuff like him killing Zod is always a controversial idea that should be handled carefully, and he did it right out of the gate in the debut film (despite Nolan advising him not to) and proceeded to do nothing substantial with the aftermath across two other films (and even had some sloppy mood-whiplash editing within the film is occurred in), they may have a point that not doing some stuff at all would have been the right choice.

  3. #13698
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    34,005

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It's not unique in that regard. That's usually how character flaws get picked up on by writers and fans, they may not begin as intentional but they are expanded upon and become consistent. In this case, it began as early as the Bronze Age with authors like Alan Moore.



    Considering stuff like him killing Zod is always a controversial idea that should be handled carefully, and he did it right out of the gate in the debut film (despite Nolan advising him not to) and proceeded to do nothing substantial with the aftermath across two other films (and even had some sloppy mood-whiplash editing within the film is occurred in), they may have a point that not doing some stuff at all would have been the right choice.
    Funny thing is that Superman killing at all is only controversial when the villain is or looks human like Zod. If it had been Darkseid or Doomsday (like in BvS), I'm not sure we'd even be having this conversation.

    Though Nolan advising him against it is kind of funny given how many times his Batman killed someone.

    Look, we've all got our reasons for liking or disliking this film and its clear by now we aren't going to change anyone's mind on it. The entire discourse around these films is a mine field thanks to people on both sides of the aisle.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 10-14-2021 at 08:55 AM.

  4. #13699
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    678

    Default

    Superman killed Zod along with 2 others in his comic run.
    Last edited by abetterday; 10-14-2021 at 09:13 AM.

  5. #13700
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    678

    Default

    A 4 wall breaking meta commentary on the debate between fans who want a more traditional Superman versus a Superman who is more relatable could be THE film for Henry Cavill to star in as Superman. And it would be a great way to introduce Mxyzptlk.

  6. #13701
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    15,234

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Funny thing is that Superman killing at all is only controversial when the villain is or looks human like Zod. If it had been Darkseid or Doomsday (like in BvS), I'm not sure we'd even be having this conversation.

    Though Nolan advising him against it is kind of funny given how many times his Batman killed someone.

    Look, we've all got our reasons for liking or disliking this film and its clear by now we aren't going to change anyone's mind on it. The entire discourse around these films is a mine field thanks to people on both sides of the aisle.
    Him killing Darkseid or Doomsday should be met with controversy as well. Though in BvS he killed Doomsday and later assisted in killing Steppenwolf, and the latter drew some criticism. So clearly DCEU Supes is just suddenly ok with killing opponents now despite being seemingly traumatized at having to kill Zod. So it's an incoherent character arc or he just only cares about humanoid beings, and that hypocrisy isn't going to be called out. And yeah I know it's not called out in the comics most of the time either, but does that excuse doing it the same sloppy writing in the movies? And keep in mind that there is a version of Superman who stuck to his "no kill" convictions and removed his powers from himself after being forced to kill the very inhuman looking final form of Mxy.

    I'm not sure how Nolan advising him is funny. Those were creative choices he made for Batman, not Superman, on a completely different project. Looking at how Superman just kept on killing foes (including possibly a non-powered human in BvS) with no examination of any of it, making Zod a clear case of shock value and nothing more, I think his creative instincts were probably correct.

  7. #13702
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    The Ocean
    Posts
    3,682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Him killing Darkseid or Doomsday should be met with controversy as well. Though in BvS he killed Doomsday and later assisted in killing Steppenwolf, and the latter drew some criticism. So clearly DCEU Supes is just suddenly ok with killing opponents now despite being seemingly traumatized at having to kill Zod. So it's an incoherent character arc or he just only cares about humanoid beings, and that hypocrisy isn't going to be called out. And yeah I know it's not called out in the comics most of the time either, but does that excuse doing it the same sloppy writing in the movies? And keep in mind that there is a version of Superman who stuck to his "no kill" convictions and removed his powers from himself after being forced to kill the very inhuman looking final form of Mxy.

    I'm not sure how Nolan advising him is funny. Those were creative choices he made for Batman, not Superman, on a completely different project. Looking at how Superman just kept on killing foes (including possibly a non-powered human in BvS) with no examination of any of it, making Zod a clear case of shock value and nothing more, I think his creative instincts were probably correct.
    I thought the criticism stemmed from their fight being so one-sided it made everyone else look useless? Since Wonder Woman was given the "honor" of decapitating Steppenwolf.
    ~I just keep swimming through these threads~

  8. #13703

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by abetterday View Post
    Superman killed Zod along with 2 others in his comic run.
    Nobody is saying the comics are perfect. Just that the 'bad' stuff from the comics don't make it into adaptation. Superman outright executing Zod in MoS comic was worse than killing him in the heat of battle like he did in the MoS movie.

    Though really, if you want to tell a 'Superman kills someone' story, maybe that should happen in the middle of the second act and not tack it onto the end and wait another whole movie to see it's ramifications.

  9. #13704
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    678

    Default

    Not saying it was bad or worst but it's interesting to compare the two since it was adapted into the MOS movie. When Superman killed Zod and two others in the comics, he was fully Superman. He wasn't new at being Superman such as he was in the MOS movie when he killed Zod. In BVS Zod turned into Doomsday and killed Superman. This could be a somewhat ying yang affect. Of course it's unclear what Snyder's intent was. But for this reason maybe there was no need for Superman in MOS to reflect on his actions expecially since he was busy re-adjusted being to the world after being resurrected. And also. there's speculation that in upcoming sequels (that never happened) Superman snapped out of his rampage in the Justice League movie after hearing the heart beat of his child in Lois' womb. So who knows. Maybe there could have been some reflection in the MOS sequel.

  10. #13705
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    115,011

    Default

    Has Superman ever actually killed Darkseid? I think with Doomsday they kind of toe the line as to how sentient or alive he is.

    Like, at least with the Phantom Zone trio Superman killed in Post-Crisis they explored the fallout of that more than they did Superman killing Zod in MoS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    The Batman screened last night (minor spoilers):

    spoilers:
    "It seems word is out that THE BATMAN screened again. I’ve spent some time tracking down info from the last screening a few weeks ago and have confirmed details with someone who saw it last night. It’s a nearly three hour long detective story. Full blown noir film.

    Story starts on Halloween and runs for about a week. Batman keeps a journal which is read to the audience in voiceover. Most of Pattinson’s dialogue is spoken this way and he wears the suit for the majority of his screentime. He’s just Batman with little interest in being Bruce

    The Riddler is sort of a Jigsaw figure. As an example, a character is locked in an explosive collar and has to solve three riddles in order to get the combination.

    Most importantly, everyone I know who’s seen it has really liked it. I heard it got a great response last night with a lot of suits in the room to witness it.

    Selina is friends with a missing woman tied to Riddler’s 1st victim. Her primary goal is to find her friend but she has deeper connections to the mob storyline.

    Penguin runs the Iceberg Lounge and is Falcone’s right-hand man. I’ve heard Farrell is, and I quote, “delightful”.
    end of spoilers

    Source: https://twitter.com/ViewerAnon/statu...94033492758533
    spoilers:
    So is Bruce not running Wayne Enterprises at all and barely appears in public? I wonder if something happens in the plot that leads him to realize he needs to do more as Bruce Wayne. I think they've talked about Batman being an experiment in tackling crime that hasn't been as successful as Bruce hoped it would be.

    I'm glad Riddler still has a riddle gimmick and isn't just a serial killer.

    I wonder if the victim is Holly? And it seems like they might lean into her being Falcone's illegitimate daughter.

    I'm guessing something happens to Falcone so Penguin can take over. Nice to see them include the Iceberg Lounge though.
    end of spoilers

  11. #13706
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    34,005

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Though in BvS he killed Doomsday and later assisted in killing Steppenwolf, and the latter drew some criticism. So clearly DCEU Supes is just suddenly ok with killing opponents now despite being seemingly traumatized at having to kill Zod. So it's an incoherent character arc or he just only cares about humanoid beings, and that hypocrisy isn't going to be called out.
    It would be hypocritical if he didn't kill them since they're just as dangerous as Zod if not more so.

    Hell, people who hated him killing Zod even claimed he'd be a hypocrite for not killing anyone else and also said he was a hypocrite for being against Bruce's killings... somehow.

    And yeah I know it's not called out in the comics most of the time either, but does that excuse doing it the same sloppy writing in the movies?

    The movies, unlike the comics, are not the ones who consistently make the argument that Superman killing is wrong at all times no matter the context. So yeah, I'd give them more leeway here than in the comics where the same Superman who murdered three depowered Kryptonians and has killed both Doomsday and Darkseid got on Diana's case for killing a psychopath with mind control powers and a desire to start WW3 without a hint of self-awareness.

    And keep in mind that there is a version of Superman who stuck to his "no kill" convictions and removed his powers from himself after being forced to kill the very inhuman looking final form of Mxy.
    That's the exception to the rule.

    I'm not sure how Nolan advising him is funny. Those were creative choices he made for Batman, not Superman, on a completely different project. Looking at how Superman just kept on killing foes (including possibly a non-powered human in BvS) with no examination of any of it, making Zod a clear case of shock value and nothing more, I think his creative instincts were probably correct.
    Because both Superman and Batman are supposed to have rules against killing, yet Nolan had Batman ignore this in all three of his films. And unlike Nolan, Snyder didn't pretend his Batman didn't kill people.

  12. #13707
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    15,234

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    I thought the criticism stemmed from their fight being so one-sided it made everyone else look useless? Since Wonder Woman was given the "honor" of decapitating Steppenwolf.
    That was the main issue hardcore fans had, but Superman doing stuff like maiming him with his heat vision (while pummeling him, so he wasn't very dangerous by that point) and then assisting in the kill (though WW finished the job) got some side eye as well. Maybe at that point people just threw their hands up and didn't expect anything more form him at this point, or it's because Steppenwolf is visually very alien so his death counts less? But IDK, him helping finish off Steppenwolf with no acknowledgement that killing didn't use to be so casual for him seems sloppy.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Nobody is saying the comics are perfect. Just that the 'bad' stuff from the comics don't make it into adaptation. Superman outright executing Zod in MoS comic was worse than killing him in the heat of battle like he did in the MoS movie.

    Though really, if you want to tell a 'Superman kills someone' story, maybe that should happen in the middle of the second act and not tack it onto the end and wait another whole movie to see it's ramifications.
    The movie had a more justified reason for Supes crossing the line in that moment, but the comics had better fallout for its version.

    Really, Supes killing Zod shouldn't be an origin movie thing. That's some heavy **** to just dump on the audience in the last act when they barely know this Superman, and then they cut to some lighter scenes that don't flow naturally and just end the film. With no real exploration of the ramifications in the follow ups we got. If it needs to be done at all, it would ideally be done in a second movie with a third (solo) being entirely devoted to an "Exile" arc.

  13. #13708
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    115,011

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The movies, unlike the comics, are not the ones who consistently make the argument that Superman killing is wrong at all times no matter the context. So yeah, I'd give them more leeway here than in the comics where the same Superman who murdered three depowered Kryptonians and has killed both Doomsday and Darkseid got on Diana's case for killing a psychopath with mind control powers and a desire to start WW3 without a hint of self-awareness.
    Final Crisis?
    Because both Superman and Batman are supposed to have rules against killing, yet Nolan had Batman ignore this in all three of his films. And unlike Nolan, Snyder didn't pretend his Batman didn't kill people.
    This reminds me of Supergirl where she vaporized a few White Martians and no one paid any attention to it.

  14. #13709
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    1,144

    Default

    I think Phillip Kennedy Johnson is entitled to have an opinion, what took place on twitter yesterday was pretty nasty, whoever dares having an opinion that differs with snyder's vision becomes an enemy. Besides nasty it was even ridiculous, some pointed out at the box office of MoS and the comic sales of Johnson's books.
    What I can't stand is that that lot, things that only snyders version matters and anything that is not, should be erased or canceled. Even the phrase they use says alot, snyderverse? sorry if anything its DCverse, because these characters have been around before snyder was even born.

  15. #13710
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    15,234

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It would be hypocritical if he didn't kill them since they're just as dangerous as Zod if not more so.

    Hell, people who hated him killing Zod even claimed he'd be a hypocrite for not killing anyone else and also said he was a hypocrite for being against Bruce's killings... somehow.


    The movies, unlike the comics, are not the ones who consistently make the argument that Superman killing is wrong at all times no matter the context. So yeah, I'd give them more leeway here than in the comics where the same Superman who murdered three depowered Kryptonians and has killed both Doomsday and Darkseid got on Diana's case for killing a psychopath with mind control powers and a desire to start WW3 without a hint of self-awareness.

    That's the exception to the rule.

    Because both Superman and Batman are supposed to have rules against killing, yet Nolan had Batman ignore this in all three of his films. And unlike Nolan, Snyder didn't pretend his Batman didn't kill people.
    Nolan was working on a different character on a different project. His approach to Batman doesn't mean he wouldn't strongly consider Superman's "no kill" rule as being something he'd hesitate to mess with. Even with Batman, people are more used to seeing him violently kill people on screen, and Nolan's approach was "realistically he would have to kill, but we will characterize him as striving to avoid it as much as humanly possible" and they stayed more or less consistent with that approach. Whereas Snyder's Superman acts traumatized at having to kill Zod, yet doesn't hesitate to kill/help kill other opponents later without much exploration as to where the shift came from.

    Snyder's Batman only killed because he was written to be that way, and even Snyder sort of tried to soften the backlash by saying "lol it was only manslaughter." He doesn't have to pretend Batman doesn't kill- it's very possible to just not present Batman as being so OTT violent while also magically not killing anyone. Why not just have a more restrained Batman? Similarly, who would force anyone to write Superman as being a hypocrite about killing and lecturing to Diana? It's not like it's impossible to have Superman not kill anyone and avoid the condescending lecture at Wonder Woman at the same time. People write these plots, they don't just happen this way by chance.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •