Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 28
  1. #1
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    22,836

    Default Cheshire (professional assassin) Appreciation 2021

    First appearance: New Teen Titans Annual #2 (1983):





  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Metropolis USA
    Posts
    5,523

    Default

    My first exposure to her was the YJ cartoon. Now I hear that voice in my head whenever I read her.
    Greenlight the Smallville animated series, WB!

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,928

    Default

    Was Cheshire enhanced in this story? She is beating up Starfire and reacting to Kid Flash.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Drako's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    BR
    Posts
    2,158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Was Cheshire enhanced in this story? She is beating up Starfire and reacting to Kid Flash.
    I reread this story kinda recent, but i don't think so.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,804

    Default

    I’ll be blunt and say that I think Young Justice made a much better version of the character - the comic version Pre-New 52 long felt like she remained a “trashy Dragon Lady” cliché way past the point anyone would find acceptable.
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

  6. #6
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    22,836

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Was Cheshire enhanced in this story? She is beating up Starfire and reacting to Kid Flash.
    I don't think she was "enhanced", but she's definitely a trained, experienced assassin going up against two heroes who knew nothing about her, giving her one advantage.
    Also, she was one of several unknown assassins attacking the New Teen Titans at the same time in a trap the team wasn't prepared for, so more confusion to throw off the heroes.

    (And for the record, these unknown assassins had been arranged for by . . . The Monitor. Yeah, that guy from CoIE.)

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,928

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I’ll be blunt and say that I think Young Justice made a much better version of the character - the comic version Pre-New 52 long felt like she remained a “trashy Dragon Lady” cliché way past the point anyone would find acceptable.
    Yep. Out of all of DC's most prominent Asian ladies (Talia, Shiva, Shado) Cheshire is the biggest dragon lady of them all.

    But I have a few nitpicks:

    -Making her the daughter of Sportsmaster and Tigress feels sudden and abrupt. I don't mind her being younger and daughter of an established character but I wish it was someone that made sense. I'm not sure if this was their intention but it seemed like they were trying to elevate Sportsmaster and Tigress whereas in the comics Cheshire is the more prominent villain.

    -Her design, which is based off of her look in her non speaking cameo in the Teen Titans cartoon is closer to Japanese. I'm not an expert on Vietnamese culture but that mask is clearly based off of the Japanese fox mask and there is no similar one in Vietnamese culture and her costume is much closer to a kimono than anything Vietnamese.

  8. #8
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    22,836

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Yep. Out of all of DC's most prominent Asian ladies (Talia, Shiva, Shado) Cheshire is the biggest dragon lady of them all.

    But I have a few nitpicks:

    -Making her the daughter of Sportsmaster and Tigress feels sudden and abrupt. I don't mind her being younger and daughter of an established character but I wish it was someone that made sense. I'm not sure if this was their intention but it seemed like they were trying to elevate Sportsmaster and Tigress whereas in the comics Cheshire is the more prominent villain.
    When did they make Cheshire the daughter of Sportsmaster and Golden Age Huntress?

    Isn't their daughter Artemis / now Tigress?
    ("Tigress" was retconned earlier identity of Golden Age Huntress.)

  9. #9
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Metropolis USA
    Posts
    5,523

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    When did they make Cheshire the daughter of Sportsmaster and Golden Age Huntress?

    Isn't their daughter Artemis / now Tigress?
    ("Tigress" was retconned earlier identity of Golden Age Huntress.)
    The cartoon. YJ took some creative liberties with some characters. She wasn't related to them before then. And is she drinking acid in that picture? Why did it burn the floor?
    Greenlight the Smallville animated series, WB!

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member Drako's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    BR
    Posts
    2,158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    The cartoon. YJ took some creative liberties with some characters. She wasn't related to them before then. And is she drinking acid in that picture? Why did it burn the floor?
    She didn't drink it, the guy in the bed did.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,804

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Yep. Out of all of DC's most prominent Asian ladies (Talia, Shiva, Shado) Cheshire is the biggest dragon lady of them all.

    But I have a few nitpicks:

    -Making her the daughter of Sportsmaster and Tigress feels sudden and abrupt. I don't mind her being younger and daughter of an established character but I wish it was someone that made sense. I'm not sure if this was their intention but it seemed like they were trying to elevate Sportsmaster and Tigress whereas in the comics Cheshire is the more prominent villain.

    -Her design, which is based off of her look in her non speaking cameo in the Teen Titans cartoon is closer to Japanese. I'm not an expert on Vietnamese culture but that mask is clearly based off of the Japanese fox mask and there is no similar one in Vietnamese culture and her costume is much closer to a kimono than anything Vietnamese.
    I think they definitely wanted to elevate Sportsmaster and Artemis/Tigress, but primarily the latter; Artemis was largely a forgettable legacy character even in the day and age of legacy characters, and was promoted to one of the show’s main stars, with Cheshire as her sister to add extra significance to her story. Sportsmaster’s “elevation” was honestly more about presentation than his connections, though; they went all out on making the Dude with hokey gimmick a full-on peer to freakin’ Deathstroke, mostly by just having him kick ass, take names, and talk cool.

    And yeah, they definitely made her look more “ambiguously Asian” without much cultural input… though this Cheshire is also ethnically American of mixed Vietnamese and Caucasian heritage; on the comics, she was also of mixed heritage, but her backstory was only tied to America through a retconned American biological father. YJ Cheshire is apparently a Lewis Carrol fan-girl in her youth before joining the shows League of Assassins, and she and her sister seem to take after their father in personality. It could be the “in-universe” explanation is that Cheshire has her own personal tastes for her costume that reflect her own interests rather than her mother’s heritage.

    The “minorities in media” thread on the community forum here pointed out that some of her fans aren’t totally happy with how Artemis, the less phenotypically Asian sister, is the “good one” while Cheshire as the more phenotypically Asian sister is the “bad one”… but that her general portrayal and personality is still seen as an improvement. It makes sense; Weismann and Co. had good intentions, and if I remember correctly had a member of creative staff who had family with a similar background to Artemis’s help design her, but they’re mortal and can make mistakes.
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,928

    Default

    I suspect Artemis race change was due to the fact that there aren't that many prominent Asian teen superheroes. There is Traci 13 but they probably wanted an equivalent for Green Arrow on the team because of the story they were doing for Roy and because they wanted a teen Zatanna to fill in the magician role. Making Cheshire her sister allowed them to expand Artemis story and made it easier to bring Jade into the plot. It also meant they could hook Wally up with Artemis without looking like they were 'erasing' Wally's interracial relationship with Linda. They killed a lot of birds with one arrow.

    Also, yeah, it bugs me as well how 'white' they made Artemis. I keep forgetting that she is actually bi racial. Even her voice actor is white.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,928

  14. #14
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    22,836

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    The cartoon. YJ took some creative liberties with some characters.
    "Creative" is putting it mildly.

    Thank you for the clarification, since I don't watch the animated stuff and didn't realize they had done that. Though I guess I'm surprised they didn't go and ramrod that change into the "source material" as well.

  15. #15
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    28,176

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Yep. Out of all of DC's most prominent Asian ladies (Talia, Shiva, Shado) Cheshire is the biggest dragon lady of them all.

    But I have a few nitpicks:

    -Making her the daughter of Sportsmaster and Tigress feels sudden and abrupt. I don't mind her being younger and daughter of an established character but I wish it was someone that made sense. I'm not sure if this was their intention but it seemed like they were trying to elevate Sportsmaster and Tigress whereas in the comics Cheshire is the more prominent villain.

    -Her design, which is based off of her look in her non speaking cameo in the Teen Titans cartoon is closer to Japanese. I'm not an expert on Vietnamese culture but that mask is clearly based off of the Japanese fox mask and there is no similar one in Vietnamese culture and her costume is much closer to a kimono than anything Vietnamese.
    Linking Cheshire to Artemis was likely about giving the latter a connection to the Arrow family through a character known for her relationship with Roy. I'm not bothered by it since both benefitted from the writing albeit in different ways. I can't really say Cheshire was hurt by the connection at all.

    Artemis's design does have issues I will agree but it is somewhat mitigated by the fact that Cheshire is a lot less stereotypical than what she was in the comics.

    Also, is comic Cheshire's outfit actually based on something Vietnamese women wear?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •