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  1. #12106
    Astonishing Member El_Gato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    What was the point of changing it in the first place? What was wrong with the original origin? Were the Amazons somehow less special than Zeus?

    Origins are the fertile soil upon which stories grow and branch out. Changing it only moves Diana further away from the themes and stories that she is supposed to tell. She is not someone rebelling against her father, she is a product of an all female society who sees our world from an entirely different perspective and meant to show the world a better way of treating each other.
    Maybe because Wonder Woman as a franchisee was very exclusionary. Only women, very little to no POC... definitely needed a change up. It’s obviously here to stay now so complaining won’t change much.

    I just don’t get how Wonder Woman fans complain about any male inclusion in her mythos (from villains, to support cast...etc) while Bat/Super/Flash/Lantern/Aqua fans more than welcome females into the mythos.
    Done with DC. Can't handle the constant whiplash! Time to go on a hiatus!

  2. #12107
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post
    Maybe because Wonder Woman as a franchisee was very exclusionary. Only women, very little to no POC... definitely needed a change up. Itís obviously here to stay now so complaining wonít change much.

    I just donít get how Wonder Woman fans complain about any male inclusion in her mythos (from villains, to support cast...etc) while Bat/Super/Flash/Lantern/Aqua fans more than welcome females into the mythos.
    Nobody is complaining about male inclusion in her mythos. Steve Trevor has appeared more than any other supporting character outside of Hippolyta. The point is that Diana's birth was a great idea that had a lot of purpose, and it's non sensical to discard it for something far less unique and meaningful.

  3. #12108
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post
    Maybe because Wonder Woman as a franchisee was very exclusionary. Only women, very little to no POC... definitely needed a change up. It’s obviously here to stay now so complaining won’t change much.

    I just don’t get how Wonder Woman fans complain about any male inclusion in her mythos (from villains, to support cast...etc) while Bat/Super/Flash/Lantern/Aqua fans more than welcome females into the mythos.
    WW fans like the male characters she has: Steve, Ferdinand, Darnell, Ed Indelicato, Hermes, Trevor Barnes, etc. Every other franchise is dominated by men and even though they have female characters, they don't always treat them that well (look what happened to Barbara, Steph and Cass at various points in the Bat-mythos, Lois's less than stellar portrayal in the Silver Age or Marvels various Crazy Women). I think men don't need to be so insecure that ONE major IP that puts women first needs to bother them. Especially as it still has good men in it, it honestly treats its men better than other IPs generally treat their women.

    There is the issue with the POC factor, but it's not like the Zeus origin actually helped with that at all. In the New 52, Philippus got swapped out for Dessa (removing a potentially prominent f/f romance along with it), Artemis was swapped out for the white Aleka, and Milan was introduced. That's it. Historia will be using the clay birth and be faithful to the Perez run, and is introducing or revamping a lot of Amazons to be varied in terms of race and body types. It's already doing more for diversity than the New 52 "inclusive" origin did.

  4. #12109
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post
    Maybe because Wonder Woman as a franchisee was very exclusionary. Only women, very little to no POC... definitely needed a change up. Itís obviously here to stay now so complaining wonít change much.

    I just donít get how Wonder Woman fans complain about any male inclusion in her mythos (from villains, to support cast...etc) while Bat/Super/Flash/Lantern/Aqua fans more than welcome females into the mythos.
    WW had the first Black female superhero. Although I agree itís not enough to be the first if you sweep them under the rug. Nubia seems to be making a comeback though, which I am happy about.

    Also what about all the Amazonís? There is going to be a Nubia and the Amazonís comic later this year as well as Historia which focuses on the Amazonís. And then thereís that Amazon spin-off movie that I hope is still in some form of production, although weíve had no word on it for a while. And Yara Florís Wonder Girl is coming out next month.

    Iím going to be supporting all of this because Iím interested and these are characters I want to see more of.

  5. #12110
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Historia will be using the clay birth.
    Wait what? Where was this confirmed? Did I miss something?

  6. #12111
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Wait what? Where was this confirmed? Did I miss something?
    DeConnick confirmed on her Twitter at one point that the "true origin" would be used, but it was from a couple years back. Because this thing has been in development hell for a few years lol

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  8. #12113
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Not really DC news but it is somewhat related to the major sentiment going on in Hollywood and how that definitely affects casting decisions now
    We are really living in a different time
    Hollywood has just straight up cancelled an awards show
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/11/m...ntroversy.html

    The pressure these studios must be under to actually try and implement diversity into their product or risk a boycott is paramount

  9. #12114
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    What was the point of changing it in the first place? What was wrong with the original origin? Were the Amazons somehow less special than Zeus?

    Origins are the fertile soil upon which stories grow and branch out. Changing it only moves Diana further away from the themes and stories that she is supposed to tell. She is not someone rebelling against her father, she is a product of an all female society who sees our world from an entirely different perspective and meant to show the world a better way of treating each other.
    Its more about mainstreaming Wonder Woman's mythology and there is some simplifying to it as well. The clay origin has never actually been the reason for Wonder Woman's super powers (in the Golden Age, she got her powers through amazon training), but having her be a demi-god does explain her powers. The mainstream culture also gets the idea of a demi-god and most 'Greek mythology' media features them.

    Its part of a similar trend we see elsewhere; In the Golden Age, Aphrodite (referred to as the Goddess of Love) was the only patron to the Amazons, but in the wider culture Aphrodite is a minor, support goddess, so she got replaced by Athena. Hercules is a bad guy in the original stories, but in pop culture, he's a good guy so he is often depicted in a lot of WW as a good guy too. Zeus as a character didn't even appear until the final issue of WW Vol #1, during Crisis of Infinite Earths, yet now, in Post-Crisis he was kind of a major supporting character.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

    "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few necks." - Wonder Woman, probably

  10. #12115
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    The clay origin has never actually been the reason for Wonder Woman's super powers (in the Golden Age, she got her powers through amazon training), but having her be a demi-god does explain her powers. The mainstream culture also gets the idea of a demi-god and most 'Greek mythology' media features them.
    I know this is a minor and unimportant detail, but amazon training wasn't the reason she was exceptional. Diana showed the holliday girls that the source of her super strength was believing she could do it. One of the central themes of the Marston era was virtues giving you actual power, so if you were a woman that believe in your own strength then you could be just like Wonder Woman. Amazon training was just about you getting into that mentality through exercise, but you didn't really have to learn any particular technique or exercise in order to gain super strength like her, it just helped you get into the mind set if you needed it.

    As far as your main point, It's pretty obvious why they did it, but I never heard anyone get confused as to why Wonder Woman has super powers. It would have been far simpler to keep her true origin and just treat her as a magical creation, which was always the reason.

  11. #12116
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Margot Robbie on pestering WB to introduce Poison Ivy in the movies: https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/mar...n-in-the-dceu/


  12. #12117
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Its more about mainstreaming Wonder Woman's mythology and there is some simplifying to it as well. The clay origin has never actually been the reason for Wonder Woman's super powers (in the Golden Age, she got her powers through amazon training), but having her be a demi-god does explain her powers. The mainstream culture also gets the idea of a demi-god and most 'Greek mythology' media features them.

    Its part of a similar trend we see elsewhere; In the Golden Age, Aphrodite (referred to as the Goddess of Love) was the only patron to the Amazons, but in the wider culture Aphrodite is a minor, support goddess, so she got replaced by Athena. Hercules is a bad guy in the original stories, but in pop culture, he's a good guy so he is often depicted in a lot of WW as a good guy too. Zeus as a character didn't even appear until the final issue of WW Vol #1, during Crisis of Infinite Earths, yet now, in Post-Crisis he was kind of a major supporting character.
    Blessings from the Gods is not that much more complicated than being a demigod, so how is it streamlined? I think the mainstream audience can grasp it just fine, especially as they can already grasp Superman getting his power from the sun or superheroes in general having all sorts of power sources.

  13. #12118
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Not really DC news but it is somewhat related to the major sentiment going on in Hollywood and how that definitely affects casting decisions now
    We are really living in a different time
    Hollywood has just straight up cancelled an awards show
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/11/m...ntroversy.html

    The pressure these studios must be under to actually try and implement diversity into their product or risk a boycott is paramount
    Nobody is even watching those shows anymore. The Oscars has taken steps to be more diverse and they’ve still dropped off hard. These shows are just dying out.
    For when my rants on the forums just arenít enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  14. #12119
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    What If Krypton hadn't been destroyed but they had just sent Kal el away. Would that make him someone else? Don't you understand that there is meaning behind these stories and that all that meaning matters? Specially with Wonder Woman. Marston was far ahead of Superman and Batman when he created Wonder Woman. Every single aspect of the character had huge meaning that connected to the message this character was trying to send about gender roles and society and virtues becoming power.

    Why replace a great story with a less great story?
    No - if Krypton survived it would change the important parts - alien from the stars raised by a kindly earthling couple. I understand that there's meanings to these origin stories - I just think some of you are pointing at the wrong part of these origins and saying "That! That's where the meaning lies!" while I'm staring at other parts and going "Guys, I think the meaning's actually over here with this aspect of the origin."

  15. #12120
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    What was the point of changing it in the first place? What was wrong with the original origin? Were the Amazons somehow less special than Zeus?

    Origins are the fertile soil upon which stories grow and branch out. Changing it only moves Diana further away from the themes and stories that she is supposed to tell. She is not someone rebelling against her father, she is a product of an all female society who sees our world from an entirely different perspective and meant to show the world a better way of treating each other.
    But did she become not-Wonder Woman with the reboot? You're focusing on what the point of the origin change was, but that's not what I'm debating. I don't know why it was changed or if it had a point. I'm not arguing that it's a better origin. I'm saying it didn't damage Wonder Woman. Nobody's really shown how it's damaged her character, her heroics, her personality, her mythos, her popularity, her profitability, etc. The only argument that's been made is that it takes away some of the meaning/symbolism, and that it was pointless. And you know, you could be right. But that's not really damaging at all.

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