DC/WB Films/Worlds (No Spoilers)

[dornwolf]

Pretty interesting if we finally get that anti cop show from Batman of all places

Really? I'd think Batman really would be number one. In universe one of the reasons he'd exist is due to either out right incompetence or how corrupted the police force is. I'd argue that the only real reason that he teams with Gordon initially any way is that Gordon yes is one of the good ones and Batman needs some one to A) feed him information and B) well you gotta put the bad guys somewhere guess it's with the only guy who wouldn't let them have "accidents" while in custody.

If were going to go with which character would be anti-cop in a movie, well Flash as he's a CSI or Superman would be the surprising ones and considering whose writing the next Superman movie and the rumored context well I wouldn't be surprised at all if this theme were to show up.

[Frontier]

I expect the GCPD to be corrupt initially but I like to think Batman and Gordon are effective in cleaning it up to some extent.

If were going to go with which character would be anti-cop in a movie, well Flash as he's a CSI or Superman would be the surprising ones and considering whose writing the next Superman movie and the rumored context well I wouldn't be surprised at all if this theme were to show up.

Reminds me of Rick Famuyiwa's Flash movie was rumored to address the Black Lives Matter movement to some extent.

[HsssH]

But an in-character Gordon probably would. Or at least he'd be more strategic about it because he knows what they'd do to a "rat."

I'm not sure if that level of depth is viable these days.

[John Venus]

Really? I'd think Batman really would be number one. In universe one of the reasons he'd exist is due to either out right incompetence or how corrupted the police force is. I'd argue that the only real reason that he teams with Gordon initially any way is that Gordon yes is one of the good ones and Batman needs some one to A) feed him information and B) well you gotta put the bad guys somewhere guess it's with the only guy who wouldn't let them have "accidents" while in custody.

If were going to go with which character would be anti-cop in a movie, well Flash as he's a CSI or Superman would be the surprising ones and considering whose writing the next Superman movie and the rumored context well I wouldn't be surprised at all if this theme were to show up.

If the underlying subtext is that Batman's brutality is what makes him effective and the cops aren't because they are too soft, sympathetic towards criminals or bound by too much red tape then that's a pro-police (or rather pro-police brutality) message. Miller's TDKR is rife with this.

Look at the way Batman comics treats mental illnesses. If someone IRL said they were going to go on a killing spree murdering mentally ill people, we would all be rightly horrified. Yet, Batman himself is made to look naive and foolish for thinking to preserve the lives of his mentally ill/damaged rogues gallery by depicting them as horrible, irredeemable, mostly murderous monsters (especially the Joker). The writers themselves may not be pro-death penalty but its also exactly the kind of argument someone who is would make.

[HsssH]

Someone in another thread (or was it in this one? Doesn't matter really) had mentioned how whole no-kill rule in Batman made sense when his villains weren't murdering hundreds of people every time they escaped. But now it makes Batman, and everyone else, look not only naive and foolish, but complicit in a way.

It is interesting how writers by simply escalating the violence are slowly changing fundamental ideas behind the franchise. I'm sure that it is not intentional and many of them are probably against police brutality, but by making things more violent they are really creating arguments for police state.

Also reminds me of that Kingdom Come thread as well where someone pointed out how nothing really came out of Batman basically creating a police state in Gotham.

[Pinsir]

Someone in another thread (or was it in this one? Doesn't matter really) had mentioned how whole no-kill rule in Batman made sense when his villains weren't murdering hundreds of people every time they escaped. But now it makes Batman, and everyone else, look not only naive and foolish, but complicit in a way.

It is interesting how writers by simply escalating the violence are slowly changing fundamental ideas behind the franchise. I'm sure that it is not intentional and many of them are probably against police brutality, but by making things more violent they are really creating arguments for police state.

Also reminds me of that Kingdom Come thread as well where someone pointed out how nothing really came out of Batman basically creating a police state in Gotham.

That's probably true.

I also think the change of medium is an important factor as well. As soon as you get real actors in there, whose worlds operate on real world physics, you just naturally get stories will the superheroes kill, even if accidentally. Like if Batman not killing is your sticking point, the only Batman live-action adaptation you can like is Batman & Robin... (which is a fun film).

[Triple J]

Someone in another thread (or was it in this one? Doesn't matter really) had mentioned how whole no-kill rule in Batman made sense when his villains weren't murdering hundreds of people every time they escaped. But now it makes Batman, and everyone else, look not only naive and foolish, but complicit in a way.

It is interesting how writers by simply escalating the violence are slowly changing fundamental ideas behind the franchise. I'm sure that it is not intentional and many of them are probably against police brutality, but by making things more violent they are really creating arguments for police state.

Also reminds me of that Kingdom Come thread as well where someone pointed out how nothing really came out of Batman basically creating a police state in Gotham.

Pretty much...I think writers should start taking a different approach to Batfamily and Gotham...deescalate the violence of villains (and perhaps make them more human as well); add to that, more focus on solutions outside of being Batman (better institutions in general, and Bruce trying different approaches to solving Gotham's issues - not just violence).

[Frontier]

I'm not sure if that level of depth is viable these days.

I feel like it's still believable enough in stories like Year One or a lot of early years Batman stories.

Someone in another thread (or was it in this one? Doesn't matter really) had mentioned how whole no-kill rule in Batman made sense when his villains weren't murdering hundreds of people every time they escaped. But now it makes Batman, and everyone else, look not only naive and foolish, but complicit in a way.

It is interesting how writers by simply escalating the violence are slowly changing fundamental ideas behind the franchise. I'm sure that it is not intentional and many of them are probably against police brutality, but by making things more violent they are really creating arguments for police state.

Also reminds me of that Kingdom Come thread as well where someone pointed out how nothing really came out of Batman basically creating a police state in Gotham.

I've been saying they've needed to deescalate Joker for a while.

Granted, this upcoming movie is turning Riddler into a Zodiac-style serial killer, so I guess it's just part of the expectation of this franchise at this point.

[The Darknight Detective]

If the underlying subtext is that Batman's brutality is what makes him effective and the cops aren't because they are too soft, sympathetic towards criminals or bound by too much red tape then that's a pro-police (or rather pro-police brutality) message. Miller's TDKR is rife with this.

Look at the way Batman comics treats mental illnesses. If someone IRL said they were going to go on a killing spree murdering mentally ill people, we would all be rightly horrified. Yet, Batman himself is made to look naive and foolish for thinking to preserve the lives of his mentally ill/damaged rogues gallery by depicting them as horrible, irredeemable, mostly murderous monsters (especially the Joker). The writers themselves may not be pro-death penalty but its also exactly the kind of argument someone who is would make.

IMO, you can't have Batman or any other superhero kill another unless there isn't any other choice (i.e no deux ex machina). Having the character become judge, jury, and executioner is not the way to go.

[Vakanai]

I feel like it's still believable enough in stories like Year One or a lot of early years Batman stories.

I've been saying they've needed to deescalate Joker for a while.

Granted, this upcoming movie is turning Riddler into a Zodiac-style serial killer, so I guess it's just part of the expectation of this franchise at this point.

To be fair, a Zodiac-style serial killer still doesn't usually rack a death toll in the hundreds.

[chamber-music]

That's probably true.

I also think the change of medium is an important factor as well. As soon as you get real actors in there, whose worlds operate on real world physics, you just naturally get stories will the superheroes kill, even if accidentally. Like if Batman not killing is your sticking point, the only Batman live-action adaptation you can like is Batman & Robin... (which is a fun film).

I agree

Most Superheroes seem to kill in live action movies for the reasons you stated. Once you have powerful homicidal supervillains murdering people regularly in some setting at least partly based on a realistic world it becomes inevitable that heroes will kill. The fantasy of subduing every foe consistently just doesn't work in live action. If the hero doesn't kill then writers will just create a scenario in which a supporting characters kills a villain or the villain gets themselves killed or villains kill each other. Nolan's Batman films did this and the villains of CW DC shows do it. They create a get around for the heroes not to get their hands bloody.

Marvel's Netflix shows Daredevil and Jessica Jones had those heroes swearing not to kill at the start of their shows yet by the end they were driven to a point in which they were killers or willing to kill to protect the lives of other.

[achilles]

IMO, you can't have Batman or any other superhero kill another unless there isn't any other choice (i.e no deux ex machina). Having the character become judge, jury, and executioner is not the way to go.

You know, I've given that point made above about superheroes killing accidently some thought. Pretty much every time Superman catches someone on screen falling from a great height, he kills them. Lois, Jimmy, doesn't matter, random dude falling from crane in Superman Returns----he's dead, crushed by Superman's harder than steel arms since Supes never took a physics class and didn't know that suddenly catching a person with no give is like waiting for them to hit the ground---it's not going to end well. Oh well, just a thought. Wish they'd get a consultant to tell them how to do it right.

[Vordan]

I feel like it's still believable enough in stories like Year One or a lot of early years Batman stories.

I've been saying they've needed to deescalate Joker for a while.

Granted, this upcoming movie is turning Riddler into a Zodiac-style serial killer, so I guess it's just part of the expectation of this franchise at this point.

It’s hilarious looking back how Finger wanted to kill off Joker because he was worried Joker constantly killing people and escaping from prison would make Batman look incompetent.

[batnbreakfast]

IMO, you can't have Batman or any other superhero kill another unless there isn't any other choice (i.e no deux ex machina). Having the character become judge, jury, and executioner is not the way to go.

To a doctor life is sacred and Thomas Wayne was a doctor. Bruce does not kill to honor his father. I don't get people who want Bruce to kill Joker like any random action flick hero

[batnbreakfast]

It’s hilarious looking back how Finger wanted to kill off Joker because he was worried Joker constantly killing people and escaping from prison would make Batman look incompetent.

I miss the days of Joker not being over used and over powered