DC/WB Films/Worlds (No Spoilers)

[Pinsir]

Marvel makes bad decisions all the time
The mcu utterly ruined the mandarin and don't even get me started on hulk
The irony is that the mcu is so successful people easily forgive the bad when it comes to marvel
DC has to fight its own fans who either hate batman hate the movies they do make or don't like the criticism handed out to all the movies

I agree with this a lot. The DCEU has problems, like I'm not a shill or anything, but when people treat the MCU as if its perfect it makes it impossible to discuss the DCEU. Like, I've been called a liar for saying Hulk 1 and Cap 1 were probably flops, while citing proof, because so many MCU fans insist their franchise has never had a flop. It makes it really hard to have a good faith discussion on these issues.

I still contend that the DCEU, warts and all, is one of the great movie franchises of all time, but people can't see this because they are constantly comparing it to the MCU.

[BatmanJones]

...unless you are in your 70's or older, I think you can relax as WB will most probably put out Superman films every decade so the chances of at least one being good look fine.

Also, I wouldn't label Superman Returns and Man of Steel as BAD Superman films but YMMV.

I'm in my early 50s and I remember waiting 19 years between the awful Superman IV and (IMO) the awful Superman Returns. Then we waited another 7 years for (IMO) the bad Man of Steel. And I don't think I'm being particularly hard on those two movies. Very few people regarded either of them to be great.

To me, the last good/great Superman movie was Superman II in 1983. I've been waiting for a good Superman movie for 38 years(!).

[BatmanJones]

In addition to the Dark Knight trilogy, the utter failure of Green Lantern and the success of 300 also proved to color (often literally) WB's approach to the DC films.

True. Thank goodness they're making up for the Guggenheim/Johns GL flop with a new GL TV series from Guggenheim/Johns. The GL movie was supposed to be DC's Iron Man, kicking off a new series of DC movies. Instead it set the GL franchise back by about 10 years and set it back so badly that GL wasn't even in the Justice League. Let's set it back another 10+ years by going back to the creators that screwed it up the first time! Good call, WB!

[SiegePerilous02]

I agree with this a lot. The DCEU has problems, like I'm not a shill or anything, but when people treat the MCU as if its perfect it makes it impossible to discuss the DCEU. Like, I've been called a liar for saying Hulk 1 and Cap 1 were probably flops, while citing proof, because so many MCU fans insist their franchise has never had a flop. It makes it really hard to have a good faith discussion on these issues.

I still contend that the DCEU, warts and all, is one of the great movie franchises of all time, but people can't see this because they are constantly comparing it to the MCU.

Yet on places like this, it's also often the case that DCEU fans (particularly Snyder die hards) can't stop bringing up the MCU either, even when they are not comparing it favorably to the DCEU

[John Venus]

Before I turned 18 I had already seen the first two Reeves movies, several episodes of Lois & Clark, Smallville was on and seemingly never ending, Superman Returns, Superman: The Animated Series, Justice League Unlimited, all the DTV movies that were either solo Superman projects or Superman as part of an ensemble and afterwards I have seen Henry Cavill and Tyler Hochelin getting cast and Brandon Routh returned to the role. I give Superman & Lois a chance because it feels like they are doing something fresh and interesting with the concept but overall, I'm good with no big screen Superman for a couple years. I want to see more B-D listers getting the lime light and building up some anticipating before bringing Superman back to the big screen.

[SiegePerilous02]

Before I turned 18 I had already seen the first two Reeves movies, several episodes of Lois & Clark, Smallville was on and seemingly never ending, Superman Returns, Superman: The Animated Series, Justice League Unlimited, all the DTV movies that were either solo Superman projects or Superman as part of an ensemble and afterwards I have seen Henry Cavill and Tyler Hochelin getting cast and Brandon Routh returned to the role. I give Superman & Lois a chance because it feels like they are doing something fresh and interesting with the concept but overall, I'm good with no big screen Superman for a couple years. I want to see more B-D listers getting the lime light and building up some anticipating before bringing Superman back to the big screen.

I think the main issue with me is nothing scratches a specific itch like a well made live action film, and the closest we've got to that recently is MOS which had some strong stuff but mixed in with a LOT of other divisive elements. There is all that other stuff, which is far more than most other characters get, but YMMV on how good it is. DCAU is the best of that bunch, but that is a solid take on Superman at best IMO. The live action TV shows always come across as cheap and cheesy; I think re-watching the 90s Lois and Clark would be painful to endure. So the urge to see a good live action Superman movie isn't going to go away when there is all the other stuff, because that stuff doesn't appeal to everyone, so it might as well not exist for them. The best of that bunch for me is the DCAU, and I hardly love Bruce Timm's take on Clark himself.

Other characters, be they other A-listers like Wonder Woman (who has a TON of catching up to do) or other B-D listers who have potential getting projects doesn't have to be mutually exclusive to Superman getting another solo film. It shouldn't have to be anyway. It IS aggravating looking at the MCU and seeing all the content with so many characters, doing much more with (initially) much less, and seeing DC/WB unable to consistently figure out the basics with their entire catalogue of characters.

[Pinsir]

Yet on places like this, it's also often the case that DCEU fans (particularly Snyder die hards) can't stop bringing up the MCU either, even when they are not comparing it favorably to the DCEU

It's not that people are bringing it up that's a problem, like people are going to be tribalistic regardless, its just, at the moment, DCEU has 10 films with 5 more on their way. I think that's pretty impressive, but because the MCU exists, you rarely see people acknowledging this. Instead you always get things like 'Well, they're still behind.' A comment that diminishes the success of the DCEU by comparing it to the MCU.

There is this word called 'fan entitlement' which I've always kind of derided as wokescoldy, virtue signal gibber gabber, but I can't help but think this applies to level of the DC fandom who think they're owed an MCU-style shared universe. Like they're could have been a scenerio, where DC film's actually failed and they stopped producing films all together, but instead , we got one where they produce 2 films a years...and that is still not good enough.

[SiegePerilous02]

It's not that people are bringing it up that's a problem, like people are going to be tribalistic regardless, its just, at the moment, DCEU has 10 films with 5 more on their way. I think that's pretty impressive, but because the MCU exists, you rarely see people acknowledging this. Instead you always get things like 'Well, they're still behind.' A comment that diminishes the success of the DCEU by comparing it to the MCU.

There is this word called 'fan entitlement' which I've always kind of derided as wokescoldy, virtue signal gibber gabber, but I can't help but think this applies to level of the DC fandom who think they're owed an MCU-style shared universe. Like they're could have been a scenerio, where DC film's actually failed and they stopped producing films all together, but instead , we got one where they produce 2 films a years...and that is still not good enough.

Probably because they blatantly attempted to have shared universe, they botched it, and there is stuff like the Whedon/Fisher debacle and Chris Terrio sharing how the studio interfered, making the conclusion that things are not going completely smoothly a reasonable one.

It's not that they don't have successes, they very much do. And there are things coming down the pipe that have the potential to be great. It's perhaps wrong to say they are still playing catch up, but they started out wanting an interconnected universe to ape Marvel, some of the films coming are still vaguely connected to that and others aren't, we have whatever Flashpoint is going to be, and they might possibly be setting up a different shared universe with Pattinson/Reeves depending on how that goes. We have them saying the Snyder Cut is a cul de sac, yet Snyder clearly wants to do more, some things are canon with the Snyder Cut while others are canon with the Whedon cut, etc. This is generally why people don't know how the hell to react to this even though we have some good-great individual films.

[Vakanai]

He's got a good grasp of the character but I'm so done with the "He stands alone" perception. Did Chris O'Donnell and Alicia Silverstone's Bat nipples really scare Hollywood so much that they refuse to touch the Batfamily in live action again? Snyder wanting Dick to be the Robin killed by Joker is the ultimate romanticizing of the 'Batman as a loner' concept.

1. Yes, yes it did scare them that bad.
2. Oddly enough, Alicia Silverstone was the only one not to have nipples on her costume in that film.

[Vakanai]

Before I turned 18 I had already seen the first two Reeves movies, several episodes of Lois & Clark, Smallville was on and seemingly never ending, Superman Returns, Superman: The Animated Series, Justice League Unlimited, all the DTV movies that were either solo Superman projects or Superman as part of an ensemble and afterwards I have seen Henry Cavill and Tyler Hochelin getting cast and Brandon Routh returned to the role. I give Superman & Lois a chance because it feels like they are doing something fresh and interesting with the concept but overall, I'm good with no big screen Superman for a couple years. I want to see more B-D listers getting the lime light and building up some anticipating before bringing Superman back to the big screen.

That's great if you count the tv shows and cartoons up there with the big budget live action movies. But like SiegePerilous said, for a lot of us all that doesn't scratch our itch to see a great or at least good Superman up on the big screen. Sometimes it's just as much about the quality and the medium as it is about the overall quantity. Superman has a lot of appearances across all media, but that doesn't make all media equal for all of us.

[I'm a Fish]

I agree with this a lot. The DCEU has problems, like I'm not a shill or anything, but when people treat the MCU as if its perfect it makes it impossible to discuss the DCEU. Like, I've been called a liar for saying Hulk 1 and Cap 1 were probably flops, while citing proof, because so many MCU fans insist their franchise has never had a flop. It makes it really hard to have a good faith discussion on these issues.

I still contend that the DCEU, warts and all, is one of the great movie franchises of all time, but people can't see this because they are constantly comparing it to the MCU.

Marvel and DC have always been compared and the movies just made it a more common discussion in the general population.

MCU's honestly got me fatigue on the shared universe, the fact I found myself relieved we didn't have an MCU movie come out last year surprised me. DC movies can exists in their own separate worlds and I'd be just fine with that, since all the DC movies I like stand on their own anyway.

At the end of the day, despite complains I have about the franchises, I still like both. I do find myself somewhat burned out on the MCU though.

[John Venus]

I would be fatigued if we had gotten the Disney+ shows in 2020. The one year break actually made me more open to seeing new Marvel content again and I'm enjoying the D+ shows adding more depth to the side characters.

They have a lot of continuity now though. Standalone movies like Shang Chi and Eternals will help them but I'm wondering how they will continue to attract new fans as the MCU continues on. Having them all on streaming helps. DC has an opportunity to net new fans by attracting people who would find Marvel's long continuity too intimidating to get into. A couple of days ago I saw a streamer watching Captain America: TFA for the first time because she was too young to see the first one. I'm curious as to how the next gen will perceive superheroes and the hierarchy. No doubt they are coming into a world where Captain America and Iron Man were the top dogs unlike the rest of us for whom Superman and Batman were at the top until the MCU happened.

[Pinsir]

Probably because they blatantly attempted to have shared universe, they botched it, and there is stuff like the Whedon/Fisher debacle and Chris Terrio sharing how the studio interfered, making the conclusion that things are not going completely smoothly a reasonable one.

It's not that they don't have successes, they very much do. And there are things coming down the pipe that have the potential to be great. It's perhaps wrong to say they are still playing catch up, but they started out wanting an interconnected universe to ape Marvel, some of the films coming are still vaguely connected to that and others aren't, we have whatever Flashpoint is going to be, and they might possibly be setting up a different shared universe with Pattinson/Reeves depending on how that goes. We have them saying the Snyder Cut is a cul de sac, yet Snyder clearly wants to do more, some things are canon with the Snyder Cut while others are canon with the Whedon cut, etc. This is generally why people don't know how the hell to react to this even though we have some good-great individual films.

A lot of the stuff your citing is stuff though isn't even something most fans understand the nuance though, like the Ray Fisher stuff (Most normies also like Marvel and DC, even if they have a preference). You say they botched the universe, but, did they? It's still going on, it has millions of fans, and it looks like DC films are about to enter a renaissance period. Like if I say I botched the sale on a house you're probably going to say, "Well how much money did you lose?" and I say "None, I sold it for a fortune, but I could have made more." You're probably going to think I misled you.

So since 2013, we've had ten films, we're getting more, I think that is pretty impressive and just goes to show you what a company can do even after some initial set backs.

[SiegePerilous02]

A lot of the stuff your citing is stuff though isn't even something most fans understand the nuance though, like the Ray Fisher stuff (Most normies also like Marvel and DC, even if they have a preference). You say they botched the universe, but, did they? It's still going on, it has millions of fans, and it looks like DC films are about to enter a renaissance period. Like if I say I botched the sale on a house you're probably going to say, "Well how much money did you lose?" and I say "None, I sold it for a fortune, but I could have made more." You're probably going to think I misled you.

So since 2013, we've had ten films, we're getting more, I think that is pretty impressive and just goes to show you what a company can do even after some initial set backs.

It's not still going on, at least not without some bumps. Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Shazam are continuing on from it, but each seem poised to do their own thing without the need to pay heed to any larger plans. The Batman and Superman stuff from the DCEU seems to be dead and being re-worked into other things. Other stuff is announced and then dropped: remember that Nightwing film? What happened to the Blackhawks by Steven Spielberg? New Gods got axed. You say the most people don't understand the nuances of things, but you seem to be ignoring stuff yourself.

It's not as simple as "the DC franchise is dead and nothing but a failure and has always sucked" or "everything has always been great and will continue to be great." Neither are strictly true. Maybe the worst thing is that we are privy to a lot of the stuff going on behind the scenes, and it comes across that they just keep throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it sticks. And things are only looking a little better now (also factoring in that they have had good films) because it seems like more of a plan is forming for going forward with the different IPs and they aren't setting up the expectation of one shared universe like they were when MoS, BvS and SS came out.

[Vakanai]

and they might possibly be setting up a different shared universe with Pattinson/Reeves depending on how that goes.

God I hope that is not their plan. Please sweet Jesus don't let that be their plan.