DC/WB Films/Worlds (No Spoilers)

[Vakanai]

I don't really see the similarity between Dick and Peter other than they both fit the quipping, light-hearted archetype. Their overall backgrounds, powers, and stories are just way too different for me to see one as copying the other. It's like when people say Daredevil is a poor man's Batman or vice versa when despite only sharing a few things in common due to being a similar archetypical character

To be fair I also view DareDevil as a poor man's Batman because they're similar archetypical characters.

I still feel like a Joker sequel is creatively bankrupt but I guess it's a lock when a movie makes a billion dollars

It is. But so is every single sequel ever, so is most of the MCU at this point, so is 90+% of all comic book films in general, and so is an even higher percentage of Hollywood films in general. The problem isn't if it's creatively bankrupt or not, most things are. The problem is if it's the kind of creatively bankrupt you tend to enjoy or dislike. For me, it's the kind of creatively bankrupt that I like, which is refreshingly rare these days. If you didn't like the last movie, then probably not the creatively bankrupt you enjoy. But still if you've enjoyed a single blockbuster movie in the past few years, then you've enjoyed a creatively bankrupt film. Godzilla vs Kong, Mortal Kombat, any MCU film, any DCEU film, Venom 2, any horror sequel, any Fast & Furious sequel, etc...

I would say Nightwing is part of the Batman franchise. At least in my view .

Okay, let me put it this way - the way he phrased it "Batman movie franchise" sounds like having two different Batman movies, as opposed to say "Batman franchise movie" which a Nightwing movie might be. Fair enough? You've got to meet me halfway because I'm not backing down at this point and am willing to argue for the next decade.

Also, there's a lot of Titans fans who might disagree with you at this point, or at least would say he's only half Batman franchise at this point. But I'm not really a Titans fan so meh.

I mean, Dick has been the lead or major character in several cartoons, movies, comics, etc. He was initially created as a character in Batman stories but I'd say his popularity and significance is pretty major (and he's as much a Titans character as he is a Bat-Character).

He's still well below Spider-Man. By several rungs. I mean, it's cool if you like him more, but he's still not on the same level.

Spidey gets his own fair share of problems from editorial.

Ain't that the truth...

[The Kid]

To be fair I also view DareDevil as a poor man's Batman because they're similar archetypical characters.

Or is Batman just a poor man's Zoro/Shadow? He didn't invent the street hero archetype. Hell, both characters started doing the gritty, street mob stuff around the same time in the 80s (maybe Matt even did it first) and Daredevil did it better if I'm going to be honest. Born Again >>> Year One IMO.

It is. But so is every single sequel ever, so is most of the MCU at this point, so is 90+% of all comic book films in general, and so is an even higher percentage of Hollywood films in general. The problem isn't if it's creatively bankrupt or not, most things are. The problem is if it's the kind of creatively bankrupt you tend to enjoy or dislike. For me, it's the kind of creatively bankrupt that I like, which is refreshingly rare these days. If you didn't like the last movie, then probably not the creatively bankrupt you enjoy. But still if you've enjoyed a single blockbuster movie in the past few years, then you've enjoyed a creatively bankrupt film. Godzilla vs Kong, Mortal Kombat, any MCU film, any DCEU film, Venom 2, any horror sequel, any Fast & Furious sequel, etc...

The main difference to me is that those films you mentioned are clearly trying to set up a franchise. Joker always felt like a one-off isolated story they were telling and the existence of a sequel feels very reactive.

[Frontier]

He's still well below Spider-Man. By several rungs. I mean, it's cool if you like him more, but he's still not on the same level.

I never said I liked him more (I'm a mod on the Spider-Man forums) but that I think both characters are great in their own way.

Or is Batman just a poor man's Zoro/Shadow? He didn't invent the street hero archetype. Hell, both characters started doing the gritty, street mob stuff around the same time in the 80s (maybe Matt even did it first) and Daredevil did it better if I'm going to be honest. Born Again >>> Year One IMO.

I dunno if they're all that comparable since, other than Miller/Mazzuchelli, they're telling two very different stories.

[Amadeus Arkham]

I dunno if they're all that comparable since, other than Miller/Mazzuchelli, they're telling two very different stories.

I mean they’re both angsty, vengeance fueled street-level vigilantes defined by tragedy. Daredevil is literally a poor man’s version of Batman as he’s basically Batman if he didn’t have a lot of money. Joking aside, I agree they generally tell different type of stories and they have a totally different supporting cast dynamic. Batman’s greatest enemy is a insane, homicidal clown, while Daredevil’s is a fat crime lord - just going off that difference along distinguishes them greatly. Interestingly, while Batman started off in the comics as this dark character then got lighter over time, DD started off as a more lighthearted swashbuckling adventurer type before going into this dark crime drama that he tends to be nowadays. I’ll go on a tangent and say that I suspect whenever Marvel Studios does a solo Daredevil project again it will be more in the vein of the character’s roots and Mark Waid run, then the Miller/Bendis/Brubaker stuff. Which I think will be a nice change of pace, and will differentiate the Marvel Studios version from the Netflix one. I hope they give him a more comic accurate costume next time too, though given that its Marvel Studios that tends to lean comic accurate in their design choices most of the time I think that’s a safe bet that they will.

[Frontier]

I mean they’re both angsty, vengeance fueled street-level vigilantes defined by tragedy. Daredevil is literally a poor man’s version of Batman as he’s basically Batman if he didn’t have a lot of money. Joking aside, I agree they generally tell different type of stories and they have a totally different supporting cast dynamic. Batman’s greatest enemy is a insane, homicidal clown, while Daredevil’s is a fat crime lord - just going off that difference along distinguishes them greatly. Interestingly, while Batman started off in the comics as this dark character then got lighter over time, DD started off as a more lighthearted swashbuckling adventurer type before going into this dark crime drama that he tends to be nowadays. I’ll go on a tangent and say that I suspect whenever Marvel Studios does a solo Daredevil project again it will be more in the vein of the character’s roots and Mark Waid run, then the Miller/Bendis/Brubaker stuff. Which I think will be a nice change of pace, and will differentiate the Marvel Studios version from the Netflix one. I hope they give him a more comic accurate costume next time too, though given that its Marvel Studios that tends to lean comic accurate in their design choices most of the time I think that’s a safe bet that they will.

Bullseye is kind of a more direct version of Joker without any of Joker's gimmicks.

[Gaius]

I watched King of Comedy for the first time recently and it was like the movie Joker was trying to be. It has aged extremely well and Scorsese is clearly a master of his craft unlike someone like Phillips. Taxi Driver is still incomparable. Travis Bickle captures the angry, isolated man type way better than Arthur does. I still feel like a Joker sequel is creatively bankrupt but I guess it's a lock when a movie makes a billion dollars

I made the mistake of watching Taxi Driver before seeing Joker (by happenstance) and I felt the same way. Bickle felt like a real-life disturbed individual than Arthur did.

[The Kid]

I made the mistake of watching Taxi Driver before seeing Joker (by happenstance) and I felt the same way. Bickle felt like a real-life disturbed individual than Arthur did.

Yea I saw Taxi Driver years back so I could see the similarities when I watched Joker. Fwiw I didn't dislike Joker and I think it was a solid homage to Taxi Driver but it's hard to compare to one of the greatest movies ever made

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I always saw Tim as the Peter Parker analogue with in the Batfamily. I'd be into a Robin solo film with him as the lead.

My intro to Jason was Red Hood and I never cared about Dick till he was Batman or Agent 37. Red Hood would be a cool addition to Justice League Dark. And I rather see Dick as Agent 37 than Nightwing.

[Amadeus Arkham]

Yea I saw Taxi Driver years back so I could see the similarities when I watched Joker. Fwiw I didn't dislike Joker and I think it was a solid homage to Taxi Driver but it's hard to compare to one of the greatest movies ever made

Its kind of funny to me that both Batman and Joker will now star in movies that are inspired by Taxi Driver.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I made the mistake of watching Taxi Driver before seeing Joker (by happenstance) and I felt the same way. Bickle felt like a real-life disturbed individual than Arthur did.

Here's the thing guys: why are you pitting these movies against each other? Can't we just enjoy them as standalone films that are both really good?

Art doesn't have to be a competition. In fact, most artists would probably tell you that it's not supposed to be.

[Vakanai]

The main difference to me is that those films you mentioned are clearly trying to set up a franchise. Joker always felt like a one-off isolated story they were telling and the existence of a sequel feels very reactive.

Eh, I'm a Godzilla fan, a Halloween fan, an Alien fan, Terminator fan, Predator fan, etc. If you watch the first movie or first two movies, none of these felt like they were meant to spin off franchises. Godzilla dies in the first movie, Terminator died in the first movie then Skynet in the second, Aliens blew up the planet the Xenomorphs were on, etc. And sure, a lot of those spawned truly horrible sequels. Every Terminator after T2, every Alien since Aliens, most of the Predator movies outside the first and Predators, I hated Godzilla vs Kong, some Halloween movies are ****, yada yada yada. Does it matter? Because every now and again those franchises still turn out something decent. Sometimes the sequels are good, or at the very least so bad they're kind of fun to watch. I liked Shin Godzilla, I liked Predators, I liked the Alien vs Predator films despite them being bad, I liked that third Halloween movie without Myers, I've enjoyed a lot of stuff from franchises that honestly felt like they said all they had to say in the first film or two. So, I'm open to franchises spinning out of movies that honestly and rightly should have never spun out into franchises in the first place. Seriously, watch Godzilla, watch King Kong, watch the first two Alien/s, watch the first two Terminator films, watch so many of the first films in so many franchises and try telling me with an honest face they were designed to work as franchises. They weren't. And while I don't know about you, I've still had fun along the way, mostly, shitty films and all. Joker is really no different from what I've seen.

[Vakanai]

I never said I liked him more (I'm a mod on the Spider-Man forums) but that I think both characters are great in their own way.

Fair enough. And just as fair if I don't really see what makes Nightwing great in his way - I never have and probably never will. To me he feels a lot like Spider-Man but without the powers, and gets along better in team settings than Spidey usually does. That's just how it is for me. Doesn't mean I dislike him, just that I'm kind of neutral on him since most of what he offers I feel I get better with another character. I know I come across as a Dick Grayson/Nightwing hater a lot, but the bulk of that is just reaction to what feels like a disproportionately large and vocal fanbase of his in the Batman section (many over there prefer him over Batman himself, which just feels wrong) for a character that doesn't really interest me that much 9 times out of 10.

[Frontier]

Fair enough. And just as fair if I don't really see what makes Nightwing great in his way - I never have and probably never will. To me he feels a lot like Spider-Man but without the powers, and gets along better in team settings than Spidey usually does. That's just how it is for me. Doesn't mean I dislike him, just that I'm kind of neutral on him since most of what he offers I feel I get better with another character. I know I come across as a Dick Grayson/Nightwing hater a lot, but the bulk of that is just reaction to what feels like a disproportionately large and vocal fanbase of his in the Batman section (many over there prefer him over Batman himself, which just feels wrong) for a character that doesn't really interest me that much 9 times out of 10.

I think what's special about Dick is his history, his role in the Batfamily, and how much he's grown and changed over time as a hero and become a very special part of the DCU with many different relationships/friendships across franchises. That's what's special about him and not something Spidey could really replicate for one reason or another.

[Beantownbrown]

'Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom': Patrick Wilson Teases Crazy, Never-Before Seen VFX Techniques

[Frontier]

'Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom': Patrick Wilson Teases Crazy, Never-Before Seen VFX Techniques

Be interesting to see after how FX heavy the first movie was.