DC/WB Films/Worlds (No Spoilers)

[Frontier]

I think her Rebirth arc and tying her to other villains in interesting ways helped a lot of us get on board, and even re-assess how we felt about her first go around. Those kind of inter personal dynamics between female villains is rare in the Big 2 outside of the X-Men and Gotham Sirens.

Plus yeah, the alternative is Max Lord. Screw that noise.

Yeah but I'd rather we not have most Wonder Rogues under Cale's thumb. But I'd also prefer a more straight-up Villainy Inc.

Veronica effectively is modern Paula at this point, just as Barbara had had some elements of Priscilla folded into her now.

Paula's kind of redundant now, and the whole "sympathetic Nazi" thing is too loaded with the chances of it being done well very slim.

I think Steve Orlando did a good job with coming up with a good modern Paula. I don't think her Nazi ties were even relevant in her Brave and the Bold appearance, she was just like a Baroness Supervillain with goons.

Paula's one of the most poorly aged things about Golden Age WW and Cale effectively fills the same role without the baggage.

Well, Paula I can at least expect to actually physically tussle with Diana (if you're into that or not).

And like I said, the only other option Max "no one's cared about me before I got killed" Lord.

JLI shots fired .

[SiegePerilous02]

Yeah but I'd rather we not have most Wonder Rogues under Cale's thumb. But I'd also prefer a more straight-up Villainy Inc.

I think Steve Orlando did a good job with coming up with a good modern Paula. I don't think her Nazi ties were even relevant in her Brave and the Bold appearance, she was just like a Baroness Supervillain with goons.

Well, Paula I can at least expect to actually physically tussle with Diana (if you're into that or not).

JLI shots fired .

None of WWs other villains were really under her thumb though. Cheetah turned on her quickly and almost killed her, Circe just made a bargain with her but was not working FOR her in any way, and Cyber abandoned her by the end. Poison was just a psycho for hire same as she always is.

Orlando's use of Paula has received some criticism for her being a legit descendant of a Valkyrie. Considering neo-Nazis embrace Norse folklore, this came across as unintentionally tone deaf

[Primal Slayer]

Paula would've worked if someone thought about giving her an agency like HYDRA that was able to operate long term but alas...

[Pinsir]

I rewatched WW84 because of this discussion and I found myself enjoying it a lot more now that I've got some distance from the toxicity surrounding the discussion of this movie. Maxwell Lord is a pretty charismatic and I like that he's basically just a huckster. I genuinely don't see how this movie is any worse or better than the vast majority of superhero flair. I think it absolutely has been unfairly maligned.

[Frontier]

None of WWs other villains were really under her thumb though. Cheetah turned on her quickly and almost killed her, Circe just made a bargain with her but was not working FOR her in any way, and Cyber abandoned her by the end. Poison was just a psycho for hire same as she always is.

Orlando's use of Paula has received some criticism for her being a legit descendant of a Valkyrie. Considering neo-Nazis embrace Norse folklore, this came across as unintentionally tone deaf

Yeah, but that was by the end of the story and to basically blow up Godwatch. I mean, if you want to adapt that, fine...I just don't really feel strongly about Cale as this woman who organizes and heads up all these Wonder Woman villains.

I didn't know that. I thought it was a way to work Gundra back in continuity.

[Vordan]

I like Cale as the financial backer of Godwatch but I’d put Circe as the actual leader in charge (of course I’m biased in that regard).

[Confuzzled]

Rosamund Pike would knock Cale out of the park. Also Lena Headey, who apparently was cast as Hera in Thor: Love & Thunder but her part got entirely cut out, so she's available. Or maybe she could play DCEU's Hera now.

I rewatched WW84 because of this discussion and I found myself enjoying it a lot more now that I've got some distance from the toxicity surrounding the discussion of this movie. Maxwell Lord is a pretty charismatic and I like that he's basically just a huckster. I genuinely don't see how this movie is any worse or better than the vast majority of superhero flair. I think it absolutely has been unfairly maligned.

I rewatched it when it was airing on HBO a few weeks back and yeah, it was nowhere as bad as I remembered it to be. Maybe it was the sky-high expectations of being the first superhero blockbuster to come out in the pandemic and the sequel to a much beloved movie, and the fact that 2020 made everyone too annoyed with life in general, that WW84 was ripped apart to shreds when it came out.

Also, WW fans fearing Diana will get limited chances on the big screen and Patty wasting one of them on this.

[InfamousBG]

I have seen WW 84 a few times now and I am still not a fan. I am a big fan of Gal but just the whole story of the movie was off for me.

[Primal Slayer]

If the film was tightened up with an additional 30mins cut i think it'd be much better. Ive still watched 5 times but it does drag.

[phonogram12]

If the film was tightened up with an additional 30mins cut i think it'd be much better. Ive still watched 5 times but it does drag.

Woof. I tried watching it 2x and I couldn't get through it. The thing is, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the cast in the least and I think they all did the best with what they were given. It's just what they were given wasn't very good.

[Guy_McNichts]

Personally, I find WW84 to be a movie of extremes. The stuff that works in it, IMO, really works. There are some strong scenes and moments, and there are actually some decent ideas buried in there.

But the stuff that doesn't work really doesn't work.

One major issue is the pacing and structure.
It was a mistake to follow the opening flashback scene with Diana fighting crime around the city. Because after that, you don't see her in costume doing Wonder Woman stuff until the desert chase which is an exact hour later. That's a long stretch of your superhero movie to have no actual superhero action.

And what is in that hour? Three sub-plots that don't really have anything to do with each other, don't complement one another, and have no real stakes. Things are happening, but there's no momentum to any of it. It just meanders.
We know Max accumulating power won't lead to anything good...but until then, he's just kind of goofing around. We know Barbara is going to become corrupted by her power...but until then, she's sitting around doing almost nothing. The one sub-plot that should have stakes and tension--Steve coming back in another man's body--is laughed off as a joke, and they go sight-seeing instead.

So you're just sitting there waiting an hour for any shoe to drop.
They should've opened with the Contest, cut to modern day and introduce Diana, her current situation, Barbara, etc...then end act one with an action beat of her doing Wonder Woman stuff.

It does get better in the second half, when she's actively trying to stop Max and there are finally stakes.
But that's its own problem because, since they spent an hour meandering, the second half is all escalation with little time to breathe. So, Max's wish granting abruptly jumps to riots and chaos for no adequate reason, and Barbara's heel turn feels sudden and unearned.

I think really the heart of WW84's problems is they had a lot of ideas that, by themselves, weren't necessarily bad if they were properly developed.
But a lot of those ideas don't gel with each other, and instead of sticking with the best ones and fleshing them out, they threw them all together and wound up actively undermining them in the process.

I believe the thinking behind the wishing stone was it will give you what you want, but not the way you want it. Diana gets Steve back, but in another man's body. Barbara gets power, but it turns her into a monster. And this would've been personified by Max Lord, a greedy huckster whose solution to every problem is "more."
It would've fit into the movie setting itself in the 80's, a time of greed and excess. And that's a decent moral: "getting what you want isn't worth it if you're hurting yourself and others."

Diana saying she wants Steve back but is unwilling to pay the price resonates much stronger when the price is an innocent man's life...not her powers. And that's where things get pear-shaped.

They wanted Barbara to have a gradual transformation into a villain. Therefore meaning, she won't be Cheetah until the third act. Okay, fine. Rely on the other villain to carry the tension/plot.
But Max Lord is not a physical threat to Diana in any way. All he has are goons with guns.
And I think this is where the "Diana loses her powers" bit emerges & we start seeing the wheels come off.

They want Barbara to be Diana's close friend so it's so tragic when she turns into the Cheetah. But they also want Diana lonely and isolated from watching all her friends age and die over the years, which is why she's so attached to Steve.
So which is it? They try to do both, and we wind up with Barbara as a minor acquaintance Diana barely knows.

It is a shame, because WW84 did have a lot going for it. They had a game cast, good director, and they were riding the high of the previous movie. But...something went very wrong. Maybe Patty Jenkins was given too much power. Maybe Geoff Johns--one of the worst Wonder Woman writers in the character's history--shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near the film's production. Maybe it was a combination of things.

Really, it's just a wasted opportunity. We get a lousy Batman movie, it's no worry...three more will take its place like a freaking hydra. But how many live action Wonder Woman movies have we gotten and will get in the future? Warner doing anything that isn't Batman-related is like pulling teeth.

It's not the worst superhero movie. It's not even the worst DCEU movie. Like I said, there is stuff that really works in it. But it's a steep drop from the first movie and wasted chance to expand Wonder Woman's world in live action and introduce different characters and lore to audiences.
I said this earlier in the thread, but for real. Queen Clea, Osira, Circe, Cheetah done properly...any of her underutilized rogues. The Bana-Mighdall, Nubia, Artemis, Donna Troy...or at least lay the groundwork so they can be introduced in a sequel. 80 years of history...and they went with non-WW character Max Lord and rando wishing stone.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think the film would be better being narrowed down to two ideas: Diana finally moving on from Steve and the dissolution of her friendship with Barbara.

And "Steve" would actually be the Duke of Deception, who takes on Steve's form to toy with and tempt Diana, and to distract her from his plot to carry out some post-mortem revenge plot of Ares, which would also involve corrupting Barbara. Diana and Barbara would have been friends for a while and Barbara would be aware she is Wonder Woman. Cue envy of wanting similar divine powers, which the Duke takes advantage of to steer her in the direction of obtaining divine powers of her own. Which backfire and curse her.

Pine would play the Duke throughout, even adopt his armor from the comics, etc. I'm sure he'd be great in the role. Diana would defeat and vanquish the Duke, and Pine could also play a vision of the real Steve that helps her do it. It would be ambiguous if he was a memory or a ghost, but regardless Diana has a romantic scene with him but makes her peace with the fact that he's gone. But by this point, she missed what was happening with Barbara, who becomes the Cheetah for the third act. So the movie would be the dark middle chapter of a trilogy: Diana gives a bittersweet goodbye to Steve, but her new best friend might be lost to her forever (resolved in movie 3). If WB had any balls, Diana and Barbara would be more than just friends, so the Adolescence of Utena parallels can be complete.

[I'm a Fish]

With the Shazam 2 teaser, I will say I haven't failed to notice they included the second most popular Greek witch, Calypso, as their antagonist and not the most popular witch Circe.

Me thinks someone called dibs for her in another upcoming DC film *wink-wink*.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Eh, she can be the sub-villain like Scarecrow in The Dark Knight series. I want Giganta to be the main baddie.

If anything, it would actually probably be the inverse of that. Circe is the powerful magic-wielder. She's basically the closest thing Wonder Woman has to a Loki in her rogues' gallery. Giganta would probably be written as the pawn that Circe uses to further her own goals.

[Confuzzled]

I feel the best Giganta can hope for is a Sandman like treatment in Spider-Man 3 where she is given sympathetic layers and not just treated as a throwaway meathead goon. But I don't think a movie with her as the Big Bad will be compelling.

Having said that, yes, the Wonder Woman Rogues Gallery is really good and criminally (no pun) underrated, and yes, the only way Hollywood is going to realize that is if there is a BTAS/90's Spider-Man/X-Men level of solo Wondy animated show that's made to give most of them their due. So WW fans keep making noise on the animated show front.

With the Shazam 2 teaser, I will say I haven't failed to notice they included the second most popular Greek witch, Calypso, as their antagonist and not the most popular witch Circe.

Me thinks someone called dibs for her in another upcoming DC film *wink-wink*.

I feel like Circe would make for a superfun Shazam foe. Like the Bat villains, the Wonder villains need to get around and vex other heroes if they want to raise their profiles.