DC/WB Films/Worlds (No Spoilers)

[mace11]

That's actually not remotely true. That is a BS argument that has been passed around as justification for the reboot crowd simply because they want to forget Zack Snyder exists, but it doesn't really hold water. And I'm not saying this as a Snyder fanboy. I've barely seen any of his films. But it's quite clear that this rhetoric is coming more from the ongoing hatred some people have for Zack Snyder than any actual objective need for the franchise.

If you come out with a good movie, it doesn't matter if the movie that preceded it was bad. Look at the countless franchises that have proven that to be the case. Did you know that the original Top Gun was released to very middling reviews? It's actually rotten on Rotten Tomatoes. That hasn't stopped TG: Maverick from being one of the most beloved films of the year.

Also, look at how Logan was a follow up to truly awful X-Men movies like X-Men Origins: Wolverine and yet still managed to be one of the most beloved superhero films of all time.

Even in the MCU, we've seen many examples of this. Incredible Hulk was incredibly mid and the Thor franchise has produced one truly good movie and three pretty big duds. Likewise, Phase 4 of the MCU has been met with enormous critical and fan backlash. Yet, I don't think Disney is panicking that they should completely scrap the Multiverse Saga because it's "built on a bad foundation."

If a movie is good, it's good. And fans will respond to it, even if the previous installment was not.

Wandavision is not a bad foundation.

To make clear iron man was the start of phase 1 and WandaVision was the start for phase 4.
Now iron man was like more then wandvision but WandaVision had stronger average ratings.
So critics and audiences thought phase 4 started out stronger then phase 1 and 2 for example.
Anyway phase 4 is view to be stronger then phase 1 and 2 on average from both critics and audiences.

Folks who are saying phase 4 is not as good as past phases are a loud minority(on the internet for example) and what they say do not match up with what the scores are on rt.
In real life most of the audience think phase 4 is the best phase(tv and movies)looking at the RT SCORES and most critics think phase 3 is best phase so far then phase 4(combination tv shows and movies)is the next best phase LOOKING AT THE RT SCORES.



All thor movies have postive rt scores from both critics and audiences and two are in A'S for cinemascores and two are in b's and none are flops.
So no thor film are duds.
The average audience gave 2 thor films rt liked scores in late 70's and one in the mid 70's.
Thor 3 has higher rt scores on average then the other thor films and it's rt liked score is in the late 80's.
Incredible Hulk has postive rt scores but it's rt scores are similar to aquaman's.
The same for the cinema scores but box office wise it flop and i think and that was early mcu for varied reasons and aquaman is highest grossing dceu/dc movie ever.

The dceu after justice league has become story wise stronger after justice league 2017,so that's true.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Public perception of the X-men films is still heavily impacted by the first trilogy, basically, it's inconsistent.

Top Gun still isn't a franchise and no effort is being made to turn it into one.

Transformers is still widely regarded as one of the worst movie franchises of all time, with all the jokes and references being about the Michael Bay portion of the franchise and which has hurt the reception of the better Bumblebee film.

The reason people want cinematic universes is so that they will buoy the mediocre films. Wonder Woman succeeding in spite of its connection to the Snyder films doesn't change the fact that they're weighing the other films down.

Oh you mean those other films that still made hundred of millions and sometimes billions of dollars? Yeah, really weighed down those films...

You've never seen the jokes about "It can't be a DC movie, people are smiling?" How every movie they've made since then has been described as an exception?

No, I haven't actually. Or at the very least, I might've seen them and then forgotten about them. Because that's what happens when circumstances change. Public perception changes too.

And I didn't say that "a dark and serious tone is a bad thing." I said "dark and growly," referring to Batman V Superman, which had a dark and juvenile tone, There's a reason Snyder fans have been attacking the Batman, it proves that the Snyder films didn't fail for being "dark and serious," but for being juvenile and lowest common denominator. But, yeah, if Batman and Robin can be in continuity with Tim Burton's Batman, then The Batman can be a prequel to Ben Affleck's Batman.

I didn't say it was. I was saying it has the same tone essentially. And again, this comment kinda proves that the people who want to hard reboot are mostly just nursing a rage boner against Zack Snyder despite him not being around anymore.

ZSJL is still nothing more than a punchline, and before the slap happened at the Oscars it was well on its way to becoming an even bigger one.

Sure. Tell yourself that. Meanwhile, here's what the actual critical consensus around it was:

Zack Snyder's Justice League lives up to its title with a sprawling cut that expands to fit the director's vision -- and should satisfy the fans who willed it into existence

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/zac...justice_league

Thor: Love and Thunder proved that "bright and funny" and "dark and serious" are not, in fact, at war with eachother. Check out the Gorr the God Butcher scenes, they were straight out of a horror movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAV96Oy4X84
So, considering that you decided to reference a movie that hits on all ends of the "brightness" and "serious" spectrum, I don't think fan reaction is going to prove anything.

Dude. I saw the movie. They effectively neutered Gorr. For someone named "The God Butcher," he really doesn't butcher many gods. And his master plan is to...kidnap a bunch of Asgardian kids and take them to his black and white hideaway? If he Krampus? And that part where he cackles like a typical Disney villain while trying to "scare" the children? If that's your definition of horror, then I really need to suggest a few films for you to see.

Like, Gorr in that movie is not scary whatsoever. I don't see how anyone could realistically think he was. Christian Bale does a fantastic job, but would I call his scenes "straight out of a horror movie"? No, I would not.

You can be "bright and funny" and still make a mature film: Wes Anderson does it all the time, and Tim Gunn did it with The Suicide Squad. You can be "dark and growly" and still make something pretty immature, like the Twilight films, or Batman V Superman

Well, firstly it's James Gunn. Secondly, you're arguing something I never even proposed. I never said bright and funny cannot be mature. I know it can be. But "dark and growly" is not inherently immature and the filmmakers who gravitate toward that style are not just "emo goth boys." Again, look at The Batman. Look at Nolan's work. Look at Netflix's Daredevil. Look at most of David Fincher's work.

Plus, personally, I never thought Zack Snyder's work was really all that dark to begin with. People think it is because of his choice of color palette, but a lot of his films don't really try to be that overtly dark in their subject matter. In fact, a lot of his Justice League was pretty optimistic and hopeful. And what's more, he treated the characters with a lot of respect. There's a reason the actors who worked with him are so loyal to him. And again, I say as not really an uber fan of his work. Never saw a lot of it.

And some of it is very much style over substance. But we can at least say that he delivered a much better Justice League than Joss Whedon's attempt to emulate the Avengers films.

Yes, if DC doesn't want the success potential of a cinematic universe there's no need for a hard reboot. But we do know that DC does want that.

DC had a shot to stick the landing, but they failed. Now they'd be better off treating Batman V Superman like they did Batman and Robin

Except, as I said, they've already gotten that. They've already had films that made hundreds of millions and billions of dollars. So, they have what they want. It may not be what you want. But those are two different things.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

The last Star Wars films made 3 billion.

Disney is acting like those films NEVER happened. Nothing outside of a few issues of IDW Star Wars has been done with those guys and no new merch has been created unlike with everyone else including the cartoons.

All because some trolls could not get over a black stormtrooper with Luke's lightsaber.

3 billion and Disney would rather ignore those movies.

If they can do that. WB can do the same.

Again, this is straw-manning and really has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Also, I really wouldn't say that Disney would walk away from a project because of its diverse lead. That doesn't seem to be part of the message they wanna portray as a brand. They've made it quite clear that they are in fact devoted to diversity. The last Star Wars trilogy just...wasn't that good. I honestly tuned right the hell out during the last film because it was so boring and I still can't tell you what happened.

[Jokerz79]

Oh you mean those other films that still made hundred of millions and sometimes billions of dollars? Yeah, really weighed down those films...



No, I haven't actually. Or at the very least, I might've seen them and then forgotten about them. Because that's what happens when circumstances change. Public perception changes too.



I didn't say it was. I was saying it has the same tone essentially. And again, this comment kinda proves that the people who want to hard reboot are mostly just nursing a rage boner against Zack Snyder despite him not being around anymore.



Sure. Tell yourself that. Meanwhile, here's what the actual critical consensus around it was:



https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/zac...justice_league



Dude. I saw the movie. They effectively neutered Gorr. For someone named "The God Butcher," he really doesn't butcher many gods. And his master plan is to...kidnap a bunch of Asgardian kids and take them to his black and white hideaway? If he Krampus? And that part where he cackles like a typical Disney villain while trying to "scare" the children? If that's your definition of horror, then I really need to suggest a few films for you to see.

Like, Gorr in that movie is not scary whatsoever. I don't see how anyone could realistically think he was. Christian Bale does a fantastic job, but would I call his scenes "straight out of a horror movie"? No, I would not.



Well, firstly it's James Gunn. Secondly, you're arguing something I never even proposed. I never said bright and funny cannot be mature. I know it can be. But "dark and growly" is not inherently immature and the filmmakers who gravitate toward that style are not just "emo goth boys." Again, look at The Batman. Look at Nolan's work. Look at Netflix's Daredevil. Look at most of David Fincher's work.

Plus, personally, I never thought Zack Snyder's work was really all that dark to begin with. People think it is because of his choice of color palette, but a lot of his films don't really try to be that overtly dark in their subject matter. In fact, a lot of his Justice League was pretty optimistic and hopeful. And what's more, he treated the characters with a lot of respect. There's a reason the actors who worked with him are so loyal to him. And again, I say as not really an uber fan of his work. Never saw a lot of it.

And some of it is very much style over substance. But we can at least say that he delivered a much better Justice League than Joss Whedon's attempt to emulate the Avengers films.



Except, as I said, they've already gotten that. They've already had films that made hundreds of millions and billions of dollars. So, they have what they want. It may not be what you want. But those are two different things.

I actually prefer the Whedon Cut of Justice League.

It's bad and I would watch any animated version of Justice League over it, but it's better IMO than the Snyder Cut and here's 5 reasons I think so.

1: The Wonder Woman and Batman scenes in the Whendon Cut were gold it explained her reasons for staying hidden from the world and not taking center stage. She didn't want humans to follow her because she didn't want to get anyone killed like Steve and she's telling Bruce this while tending to his wounds. VS her being sad because her boyfriend died nearly a hundred years ago.

2: Not going to lie the Aquaman scene of him seating on the Lasso was funny.

3: Better Continuity in the Snyder Cut Mera said her parents were dead and Queen Atlanna took her in while in the Whedon Cut she said Queen Atlanna took her in during the Wars when her parents went to fight. This is important because Mera's dad was a major ALIVE side character in Aquaman.

4: Martian Manhunter posing as Martha is dumb and unneeded. The scene IMO makes more sense with it actually being Martha and has more meaning.

5: It's not 5 bloody hours long. I love extended cuts of films like Romero's Dawn of the Dead or the Godfather 1 and 2. But 5 hours for Snyder's undeserved pretentious BS, Hard HELL NO.

Bonus Reason: The Apocalyptic Future scene was just stupid.

The only good thing about the Snyder Cut was Cyborg's origin, but it wasn't good enough to sit through that film for I'll watch Young Justice Season 3 vs that.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I actually prefer the Whedon Cut of Justice League.

It's bad and I would watch any animated version of Justice League over it, but it's better IMO than the Snyder Cut and here's 5 reasons I think so.

1: The Wonder Woman and Batman scenes in the Whendon Cut were gold it explained her reasons for staying hidden from the world and not taking center stage. She didn't want humans to follow her because she didn't want to get anyone killed like Steve and she's telling Bruce this while tending to his wounds. VS her being sad because her boyfriend died nearly a hundred years ago.

2: Not going to lie the Aquaman scene of him seating on the Lasso was funny.

3: Better Continuity in the Snyder Cut Mera said her parents were dead and Queen Atlanna took her in while in the Whedon Cut she said Queen Atlanna took her in during the Wars when her parents went to fight. This is important because Mera's dad was a major ALIVE side character in Aquaman.

4: Martian Manhunter posing as Martha is dumb and unneeded. The scene IMO makes more sense with it actually being Martha and has more meaning.

5: It's not 5 bloody hours long. I love extended cuts of films like Romero's Dawn of the Dead or the Godfather 1 and 2. But 5 hours for Snyder's undeserved pretentious BS, Hard HELL NO.

Bonus Reason: The Apocalyptic Future scene was just stupid.

The only good thing about the Snyder Cut was Cyborg's origin, but it wasn't good enough to sit through that film for I'll watch Young Justice Season 3 vs that.

Well, that's certainly your opinion. And that is valid. Don't let what I say take away from that.

However, Snyder's Justice League is definitely more highly regarded than Whedon's. For a good many reasons, especially since Whedon's abuses on set came to light in recent years.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Wandavision is not a bad foundation.

To make clear iron man was the start of phase 1 and WandaVision was the start for phase 4.
Now iron man was like more then wandvision but WandaVision had stronger average ratings.
So critics and audiences thought phase 4 started out stronger then phase 1 and 2 for example.
Anyway phase 4 is view to be stronger then phase 1 and 2 on average from both critics and audiences.

Iron Man was not the only film to serve as foundation for Phase 1. WandaVision is likewise not the only show lay the foundation for Phase 4.

That being said, while it is a fine show in some regards especially in terms of the acting, the visuals, and the way it evokes the history of television and at times is very entertaining, there are a few things about WandaVision that really fall apart under scrutiny. I'm not gonna go too in-depth cuz this thread is not about that, but:

1. It makes it completely clear that Wanda is not a good person and may in fact be a psychopath. She knowingly and willfully subjected a town to psychological manipulation and torture to the point where they literally begged her to let them die. You can't argue that she didn't know what she was doing. She confronts the authorities who are trying to bring an end to said manipulation and torture. You also can't argue that she was under the influence of another power. She wasn't. Her actions were entirely her own. She is entirely culpable for what happened in Westview. But even then...
   
2. The show still tries to sell us on the idea that Wanda is a tragic heroic figure because she's "grieving." Someone's grief is no justification for knowingly doing something like that. And despite this, the writers bend over backwards to make her seem like the "good guy" and that simply putting an end to the active torture she was inflicting on people was a noble "sacrifice."

Folks who are saying phase 4 is not as good as past phases are a loud minority(on the internet for example) and what they say do not match up with what the scores are on rt.

They're not a "loud minority." Even many ardent MCU fans will admit that Phase 4 has not been a good time for the MCU. Why do you think both MoM and Love & Thunder faced such huge drop-offs and ended up underperforming at the box office? If Phase 4 was as beloved as you're claiming, that wouldn't be the case.

All thor movies have postive rt scores from both critics and audiences and two are in A'S for cinemascores and two are in b's and none are flops.
So no thor film are duds.

https://****************/thor-love-t...rming-eternals

And that's all I'm gonna say about this topic because this thread is not about whether or not Phase 4 of the MCU is underperforming. There are plenty of places on the internet you can discuss that.

[Thezmage]

Oh you mean those other films that still made hundred of millions and sometimes billions of dollars? Yeah, really weighed down those films...

Again, DC is looking for a cinematic universe that can buoy up its worse films, not drag down its better films. None of those films benefited from the connection to BvS and all the positive buzz was about how they were nothing like those films and how they shouldn’t be judged by them

No, I haven't actually. Or at the very least, I might've seen them and then forgotten about them. Because that's what happens when circumstances change. Public perception changes too.

You’re not paying attention doesn’t mean they go away. The public perception HASN’T changed, not after five years of making completely different films

I didn't say it was. I was saying it has the same tone essentially. And again, this comment kinda proves that the people who want to hard reboot are mostly just nursing a rage boner against Zack Snyder despite him not being around anymore.

“People hated Snyder’s terrible movies” really isn’t the dunk you think it is

Sure. Tell yourself that. Meanwhile, here's what the actual critical consensus around it was:



https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/zac...justice_league

The only people still paying attention to ZSJL enough to write review were either cultists or just had their expectations completely in the gutter

And a four hour assembly cut on a streaming service that most people won’t watch doesn’t move the needle at all

Dude. I saw the movie. They effectively neutered Gorr. For someone named "The God Butcher," he really doesn't butcher many gods. And his master plan is to...kidnap a bunch of Asgardian kids and take them to his black and white hideaway? If he Krampus? And that part where he cackles like a typical Disney villain while trying to "scare" the children? If that's your definition of horror, then I really need to suggest a few films for you to see.

Like, Gorr in that movie is not scary whatsoever. I don't see how anyone could realistically think he was. Christian Bale does a fantastic job, but would I call his scenes "straight out of a horror movie"? No, I would not.

Obviously you weren’t paying attention considering you completely missed what Gor’s actual plan was. Did you go to the bathroom during the shadow realm sequence? The one where we find out what Gor’s actual plan was and where he had his shadow monsters pull Jane and Valkyrie into the darkness?

Well, firstly it's James Gunn. Secondly, you're arguing something I never even proposed. I never said bright and funny cannot be mature. I know it can be. But "dark and growly" is not inherently immature and the filmmakers who gravitate toward that style are not just "emo goth boys." Again, look at The Batman. Look at Nolan's work. Look at Netflix's Daredevil. Look at most of David Fincher's work.

Exactly, look at them and then look at Batman V Superman. You can’t compare them even slightly. All they have in common is a dark color palette.

Plus, personally, I never thought Zack Snyder's work was really all that dark to begin with. People think it is because of his choice of color palette, but a lot of his films don't really try to be that overtly dark in their subject matter. In fact, a lot of his Justice League was pretty optimistic and hopeful. And what's more, he treated the characters with a lot of respect. There's a reason the actors who worked with him are so loyal to him. And again, I say as not really an uber fan of his work. Never saw a lot of it.

I’ve seen Batman V Superman, so, no, you can’t say he treated the characters with any respect. Both Batman and Superman came off as growls idiots who didn’t care about human life, and that describes neither of them

And some of it is very much style over substance. But we can at least say that he delivered a much better Justice League than Joss Whedon's attempt to emulate the Avengers films.

We can’t say that, actually, because we still haven’t seen the version of Zack Snyder’s Justice League that would’ve been released in theaters. Get him to trim it down to a reasonable length for theater distribution so we can compare apples to oranges and we’ll talk

Except, as I said, they've already gotten that. They've already had films that made hundreds of millions and billions of dollars. So, they have what they want. It may not be what you want. But those are two different things.

Again, they want a universe that buoys up their films, where they can just say “we’re making a Hawkman movie” and people are already on board. They don’t have that, not even close

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Again, DC is looking for a cinematic universe that can buoy up its worse films, not drag down its better films. None of those films benefited from the connection to BvS and all the positive buzz was about how they were nothing like those films and how they shouldn’t be judged by them

But again, you're not providing any evidence that they have been "dragged down" because a lot of those films still performed VERY well at the box office. Wonder Woman made well over $800 million and Aquaman made well over $1 billion. If this link to BvS was as toxic as you're claiming, their box offices would have tanked completely.

You’re not paying attention doesn’t mean they go away. The public perception HASN’T changed, not after five years of making completely different films

https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/new...mcu/ar-AAZUzDM
https://www.cbr.com/dceu-more-consistent-mcu/
https://whatculture.com/film/8-thing...the-mcu-so-far

Now, of course, I'm NOT saying that the DCEU is now better than the MCU or any such trash-talking nonsense. I don't find that sort of thing constructive and, despite some recent failures, I still think Phase 4 has provided at least some good stories, Spider-Man: No Way Home and Shang Chi being the standouts. But the very fact that these articles exist is evidence of the mood having shifted on at least the DC side.

Now, people are looking at DC films and pointing out that they do actually excel in several aspects, especially when it comes to female representation.

“People hated Snyder’s terrible movies” really isn’t the dunk you think it is

What I'm saying is that people who want a reboot are people who really just can't let go of a decision that was made years ago that has little bearing on where we are now. Were all of Snyder's films good? No. But does that mean that the DCEU is doomed because of that? Also no. But on top of that, the people who don't want to acknowledge that he did at least some things right are just making themselves look like sore losers and fools.

Newsflash: the Snyder Cut was real. And I was actually one of those people who said for years that it was all BS. But guess what? I was wrong. And not only was I wrong, but his cut was SIGNIFICANTLY better than the cut we originally got. So, yeah, I'm gonna give him credit where credit is due. You can still stubbornly refuse to do that if you want, but just know that, in the end, Zack got to have the last laugh.

The only people still paying attention to ZSJL enough to write review were either cultists or just had their expectations completely in the gutter

And a four hour assembly cut on a streaming service that most people won’t watch doesn’t move the needle at all

So, 300 separate reviewers and over 25,000 audience viewers were all just...cultists or people who would just be pleased by anything...

Do you think they all had one big group text where they coordinated their reviews? Oh, I bet they did. Sneaky cultists.

There's a word for what you're doing right now: it's called denial.

And you call Snyder fans toxic...

Obviously you weren’t paying attention considering you completely missed what Gor’s actual plan was. Did you go to the bathroom during the shadow realm sequence? The one where we find out what Gor’s actual plan was and where he had his shadow monsters pull Jane and Valkyrie into the darkness?

Lol. No, I watched the whole movie...unfortunately...

You're talking about the sequence in the shadow realm where they split up to find Gorr and the kidnapped children and then Jane just conveniently stumbles on a full mural depicting Gorr's master plan to use Stormbreaker to get to Destiny.

Yeah, that's uh, very top-notch writing there...Apparently, Gorr is a not-so-smart version of The Riddler...

Either way, though, at no point did I think "this is like a horror movie." It seemed like something that maybe a 10-year-old would find...slightly disturbing. And that makes sense. Because almost every scene in Love & Thunder feels like it was mad-libbed by a fifth-grader.

Exactly, look at them and then look at Batman V Superman. You can’t compare them even slightly. All they have in common is a dark color palette.

But I'm not saying Zack Snyder is like them. Zack has his own style and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But here's the thing. It's still a valid style. You may not enjoy it but he has his fans. And that's totally fine.

I’ve seen Batman V Superman, so, no, you can’t say he treated the characters with any respect. Both Batman and Superman came off as growls idiots who didn’t care about human life, and that describes neither of them

I'm talking about Justice League, where it was quite obvious that he had more respect for those characters than Joss Whedon did. He didn't have Flash landing between Wonder Woman's breasts like Joss did. He didn't just insert random jokes to "Marvelize" the film. He actually made the Amazons at least...do something. He also made Cyborg actually present and have a reason to be there as opposed to Whedon's cut of the movie.

Also, you seem to have just honed in on the "growling" from Batman and Superman and turned it into a buzzword you can throw around in arguments, when that was maybe a few scenes. And I actually rewatched BvS a while back. Don't remember much growling. At least not to the point that it was distracting. Still not a great movie, but you might wanna, like, update your argument.

We can’t say that, actually, because we still haven’t seen the version of Zack Snyder’s Justice League that would’ve been released in theaters. Get him to trim it down to a reasonable length for theater distribution so we can compare apples to oranges and we’ll talk

Actually, no we can, because he actually delivered this film. You can watch it anytime. And yes, it is significantly better than Whedon's rendition. And yes, it's long but there have been similarly long movies before. Look at The Irishman or Titanic or Lawrence of Arabia. All those movies are over three hours long.

So, you can move the goalpost all you want, but Zack Snyder delivered this movie and you can watch it whenever. End of story.

Again, they want a universe that buoys up their films, where they can just say “we’re making a Hawkman movie” and people are already on board. They don’t have that, not even close

Well, actually Hawkman is gonna be in Black Adam. Maybe you missed that. And if that movie is successful, they very well might say "we're doing a Hawkman movie." And fans may very well be on board for it. So, stay tuned I guess. Or don't. Your call.

At the end of the day, an irrational hatred for a director who is not even involved in the DCEU right now is getting in the way of you enjoying anything that's currently being offered by other directors, despite it actually being of good quality. So, your call if you want to continue with that.

[mace11]

They're not a "loud minority."

Yes there are.

Even many ardent MCU fans will admit that Phase 4 has not been a good time for the MCU. Why do you think both MoM and Love & Thunder faced such huge drop-offs and ended up underperforming at the box office? If Phase 4 was as beloved as you're claiming, that wouldn't be the case.

In fact folk were complaining when captain marvel and black panther were out,reviewed bombed etc..but the real start of the complaining was the beginning of phase 2.
Anyway remember ironman 3,thor 2 and avengers 2?

That did not stop those films from making money and not being flops but there was always folks complaining.
If you notice each phase hs gotten loudr with complains.
Where was all this complaining when phase 1 was out?
Clearly it's not best phase and it's weaker then all the others phases.

It's louder now because of more mcu projects then ever,more diversity and more diversity in story telling in mcu canon and less known heroes that certain folks do not want to see andback then it was a internet industy to complain about things like it is now.
What the is the term they call now to complain to just to complain?
Grifting

noun. (sometimes used with a plural verb) a group of methods for obtaining money falsely through the use of swindles, frauds, dishonest gambling, etc. money obtained from such practices. to profit by the use of grift: a man known to have grifted for many years.

Doctor strange 2 did not underperform knowing that china and russia was out of the picture and the same for thor 4.
Doctor strange 2 for most of the critics and audiences was not has good as the first but it still got really high rt scores from the audiences.
It's just cinemascore was lower because it was less enjoyable(horror etc).

Now on the movie side thor 4 has gotten one of lowest critic ratings of the mcu,lower then doctor strange 2,but on other side ms marvel has gotten the highest critic ratings of any mcu project and moon knight this year has really high ratings from critics and audiences and she-hulk has really high critics ratings,but it's audience ratings was/is being reviewed bombed as we speak.

Money wise phase 4 is doing better then phase 2 and 1 and the current dceu and it's not over yet,and depending what you see most folks think it's the best phase so far on average and most critics still think phase 3 is still the best phase but even critics think on average phase 4 is better then phase 1,2 and the dceu.

Quote Originally Posted by mace11 View Post
Folks forget the empire strikes back did not surpass the original star wars movie and second one was better then the first one.
So having a sequel not surpassing past films is not only a thor thing.
It happen with age of ultron as well and other movies like superman 2,the new star trek 2 and 3 movies etc..and most of thier budgets were higher.

Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
Thor 4 passed Thor in domestic box office. Just didn't do it worldwide because of No China or Russia. Thats why I have said a million times What the 2nd Doctor Strange did was amazing.
As someone pointed out. Only two Marvel sequels didn't make more than the previous movie. IM2 and Age of Ultron.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...Office/page186

[Refrax5]

Again, DC is looking for a cinematic universe that can buoy up its worse films, not drag down its better films. None of those films benefited from the connection to BvS and all the positive buzz was about how they were nothing like those films and how they shouldn’t be judged by them




You’re not paying attention doesn’t mean they go away. The public perception HASN’T changed, not after five years of making completely different films



“People hated Snyder’s terrible movies” really isn’t the dunk you think it is



The only people still paying attention to ZSJL enough to write review were either cultists or just had their expectations completely in the gutter

And a four hour assembly cut on a streaming service that most people won’t watch doesn’t move the needle at all



Obviously you weren’t paying attention considering you completely missed what Gor’s actual plan was. Did you go to the bathroom during the shadow realm sequence? The one where we find out what Gor’s actual plan was and where he had his shadow monsters pull Jane and Valkyrie into the darkness?



Exactly, look at them and then look at Batman V Superman. You can’t compare them even slightly. All they have in common is a dark color palette.



I’ve seen Batman V Superman, so, no, you can’t say he treated the characters with any respect. Both Batman and Superman came off as growls idiots who didn’t care about human life, and that describes neither of them



We can’t say that, actually, because we still haven’t seen the version of Zack Snyder’s Justice League that would’ve been released in theaters. Get him to trim it down to a reasonable length for theater distribution so we can compare apples to oranges and we’ll talk



Again, they want a universe that buoys up their films, where they can just say “we’re making a Hawkman movie” and people are already on board. They don’t have that, not even close

I think that no studio has that and people act as if creating a cinematic universe on the level Marvel did is simple when it was really lightning in a bottle. This idea that DC could just do that if they tried harder seems pretty dubious. Plenty of others have tried and failed and the audience and culture is different than it was in 2008 when Iron Man hit. So many different elements came together at the right time to make that work.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Yes there are.



In fact folk were complaning when captain marvel and black panther were out,reviewed bombed etc..but the real complaining was the beginning of phase 2.
Anyway remember ironman 3,thor 2 and avengers 2?
That did not stop those films from making money and not being flops but there was always folks complaining.

It's louder now because of more mcu projects then ever,more diversity and more diversity in story telling in mcu canon and less known heroes that certain folks do not want to see andback then it was a internet industy to complain about things like it is now.
What the is the term they call now to complain to just to complain?
Grifting



Doctor strange 2 did not underperform knowing that china and russia was out of the picture and the same for thor 4.
Doctor strange 2 for most of the critics and audiences was not has good as the first but it still got really high rt scores from the audiences.
It's just cinemascore was lower because it was less enjoyable(horror etc).

Now on movie side thor 4 has gotten one of lowest critic ratings of the mcu,lower then doctor strange 2,but on other side ms marvel has gotten the highest critic ratings of any mcu project and moon knight this year has really high ratings from critics and audiences and she-hulk has really high critics ratings,but it's audience ratings was/is being reviewed bombed as we speak.

Money wise phase 4 is doing better then phase 2 and 1 and it's not over yet,and depending what you see most folks think it's the best phase so far on average and most critics still think phase 3 is still the best phase but even critics think on average phase 4 is better then phase 1,2 and the dceu.

They are also louder because more and more people are disliking these movies because the recent installments are not good. Like, I didn't want to make it about this, but it's just gaslighting at this point.

If something is bad, it's bad. It doesn't mean the people involved aren't talented or that there's no hope for the studio going forward. But it seems like with some franchises, the people who call it out as lackluster are then barraged with accusations of being grifters or bigots and that's not right. Will there be some people who fit into that? Yes, as with all things. But the people who are just voicing a valid opinion on a piece of media deserve better than to be labeled and dismissed so abruptly.

MoM and Love & Thunder both faced almost 70% drops in their box office from their first to second weekends. That's not a good sign. If they had been of just the standard baseline quality for MCU films before Endgame, they would have both cracked the billion-dollar club. So, let's stop with mental gymnastics to justify why they underperformed.

There were a LOT of issues with both those films, which again were likely the reason for their underperformance at the box office. And I could go on a whole rant about it, but I'd be here typing for an hour if I did and I also want to not make this thread about the MCU any more than it has been.

[mace11]

Now, of course, I'm NOT saying that the DCEU is now better than the MCU or any such trash-talking nonsense. I don't find that sort of thing constructive and, despite some recent failures, I still think Phase 4 has provided at least some good stories, Spider-Man: No Way Home and Shang Chi being the standouts. But the very fact that these articles exist is evidence of the mood having shifted on at least the DC side.

There are no recent failures.
Some disappointments critic wise like thor 4 and doctor strange 2 but no recent failures critic wise or money wise and most of the audiences like those 2 the movies and gave it high to really high rt scores.

They are also louder because more and more people are disliking these movies because the recent installments are not good. Like, I didn't want to make it about this, but it's just gaslighting at this point.

If something is bad, it's bad. It doesn't mean the people involved aren't talented or that there's no hope for the studio going forward. But it seems like with some franchises, the people who call it out as lackluster are then barraged with accusations of being grifters or bigots and that's not right. Will there be some people who fit into that? Yes, as with all things. But the people who are just voicing a valid opinion on a piece of media deserve better than to be labeled and dismissed so abruptly.

MoM and Love & Thunder both faced almost 70% drops in their box office from their first to second weekends. That's not a good sign. If they had been of just the standard baseline quality for MCU films before Endgame, they would have both cracked the billion-dollar club. So, let's stop with mental gymnastics to justify why they underperformed.

There were a LOT of issues with both those films, which again were likely the reason for their underperformance at the box office. And I could go on a whole rant about it, but I'd be here typing for an hour if I did and I also want to not make this thread about the MCU any more than it has been.

Anyone saying that recent mcu movies are not good are in the minority.

THOR: LOVE AND THUNDER 65%
6.50 out of 10 average rating
AUDIENCE SCORE 77%
4.0 out of 5 average rating

DOCTOR STRANGE IN THE MULTIVERSE OF MADNESS 74%
6.50 out of 10 average rating
AUDIENCE SCORE 85%
Average Rating: 4.3/5

These are not bad movies to those who rated them.
Most folks think they are not bad movies and i have seen doctor strange 2,its a really movie to me.
I will see thor 4 soon for myself but you saying they are bad movie is a minority point of view just like when someone says aquaman or wonder woman is bad movie.
Now you could say they are bad movies but that's you,not most.


Thor 3 and the first doctor strange never reach a billion,and doctor strange 2 and maybe thor 4 would have reach 1 billion of russia and china were in the game.
Not every mcu movie needs reach 1 billion dollars.

Doctor strange 2 came near close however.
There is no proof that thor 4 was suppose to reach 1 billion anyway.

Thor 4 has made it's money back and clearly doctor strange 2 as well.
There is no underperformance for those films,(maybe thor 4 worldwide but not dom.)and i just explain to you why worldwide it did not reach thor 3 numbers.

The point is thor 4 made it's money back but of course disney marvel would have loved to make more money worldwide but clearly because of china and russia it did not.
It would have made more money and surpass thor 3 if it were playing in china and russia but does not need to make a billion.

Not every mcu film in phase 3 has made a billion dollars.
Gotg 2 has not made billion dollars,none of the ant-man films too and if any thor film should have made billion dollars it should or would have been thor 3.

Most of the critics are still liking THOR: LOVE AND THUNDER and more so the audience.
Last time i check having a rt scores in 60's and 70's is not bad,it's a positive.
Most superhero movies of 90's and 80's and alot in 2000's would love to have those scores.
To many folks today have been spoiled.

Covid is not out of the picture either.

This was from a few weeks ago.

Thor: Love and Thunder earned $7.6 million (-42%) in its fifth weekend for a new $316.1 million 31-day domestic total. For all the pontificating online about Marvel being in trouble or Thor 4 being a disappointment, Love & Thunder just passed the $315 million domestic cume of Ragnarök.
Once it tops $322 million, it will have sold more tickets than the previous Thor. It now sits with $698.9 million worldwide, nearing $700 million and Thor: Ragnarök's no China/no Russia cume of $712 million ($854 million total in 2017). In terms of exchange rates, it’s already above Thor 3’s no Russia/China global cume. It’s not playing as a breakout sequel to Thor 3, but money is money. Besides, Thor 4 didn’t bring much new to the table after the last two Thor movies. While its reception may have been disappointing, it’s not like Marvel needs Thor: Triumphant.

inisideguy quote-
Yup. Thor 4 just passed Thor 3 for domestic box office. Oh the failure.


useridgoeshere quote-
It has now passed Ragnorak’s worldwide total less China and Russia. It obviously won’t beat the global total with those two included but in a more apples to apples comparison, it’s doing well.


Maestro 216 quote-
They paint the narrative as failure to justify their political mindset. I did not like Captain Marvel personally, but I would be lying to suggest it flopped at the Box Office at 1 billion.

Now looking at the ratings from the critics and audiences for the mcu films,the average person or most would say there are no bad or mediocre mcu movies. All mcu films are fresh from either the audience,critics or both. That's a fact. Even if eternals has a rotten from critics the average score is good (5.3/10) and it's not a rotten from audience and has higher rt score and average score from them.

The other recent mcu projects this year are moonknight, ms marvel,i am groot and she hulk by the way and they are clearly not failures.

Keep in mind aquaman rt scores are similar to thor 4 and made over a billion,so something else going on here.

Here is some comparisons.

AQUAMAN 65% 6.00 out of 10 average rating
AUDIENCE 73% 3.8 out of 5 average rating
Cineamascore A-



THOR: LOVE AND THUNDER 65% 6.50 out of 10 average rating

AUDIENCE SCORE 78% 4 out of 5 average rating
Cineamascore B+

Thor 4 Rt critic score is the same as aquaman,but critics thought thor 4 is the stronger movie looking at the average rating.

For the audience?most of liked thor 4 more and thought it was the stronger movie too.
The only thing stronger was the cineamascore and that got a A -
So overall thor 4 in reality was better received then aquaman.

Joker 68% 7.30 out of 10 average rating

AUDIENCE 88% 4.4 out of 5 average rating


Joker cineamascore B+

THOR: LOVE AND THUNDER 65% 6.50 out of 10 average rating
AUDIENCE SCORE 78% 4 out of 5 average rating
Cineamascore B+

Now joker rt critic score is around the same,but the average rating is much higher but it's audinece rt scores are much higher both have higher rt scores then the critics.

Now jokers cineamascore is the same,both are in B'S.

Note-
Lets keep mind dc movies like the suicide squad and birds of prey were better recieved overall then aquaman and those films flop and those ARE comicbook movies too.
So other things have be taken into account,not just word of mouth,critic and audience scores etc etc..
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...61#post6161761

[mace11]

By the way this should not be ignored as well when talking about the current box office and expectations etc..
It's clear certain youtube channels and other places ignore or downplay it or both like they do the china and russisa stuff and even some other places.
Box office is down by 30% from 2019 so we have to keep that in mind when movies do not make the money they were making before on average or should have making now etc..

A glum picture for Regal Cinemas

Are the end credits rolling for Cineworld Group? The world’s second largest theater chain — which owns Regal Cinemas — is preparing to file for bankruptcy after failing to get movie fans back in seats following the pandemic slowdown, The Wall Street Journal reports. Box office ticket sales in the U.S. are still down 30% compared with 2019 and there have been 30% fewer films released in cinemas. That shortage of releases is partly a result of movie production being delayed by COVID and partly because more films are making their debut on streaming services.

https://www.linkedin.com/news/story/...nemas-5963906/

[Jack The Tripper]

Guys, no one knows what’s gonna happen lmao

All scenarios are very possible. If they’re getting a real “Feige type” to oversee the universe, I doubt that person wants to come in and not use his own version of AT LEAST Batman and Superman, especially as they’ve been in limbo for so long. Zaslav has shown he’s not against drastic business decisions that he thinks will save money in the long run. I don’t think I’d be surprised if in a few years we had a new dc slate starting with a new superman film, and have one movie a year from then on, til they work up to 2 movies a year, and so on. It saves money, and gives them time to work on it all

On the other hand, it’s entirely possible Zaslav will not want to waste time getting new films, casts, and universe together.

We honestly won’t know until the post-Flash film slate is announced

Gah damn, don’t take speculation so personal. At the end of the day these executives will go where the money or their ego takes them.

[Serpico Jones]

WBD stock now trading at $12 a share. Embarrassing.