DC/WB Films/Worlds (No Spoilers)

[Johnny]

No disrespect.
In the topic of race bending historically white characters/diversity
A lily white movie cast is not desireable in an era of actually wanting to reflect what the world looks like in the big screen.
Institutionalized Racism is the main factor for most characters being White. When Black Canary was created, it would of been have unheard of for the character to be otherwise. White was the default “normal”. No longer. The question becomes “Why couldn’t this character have this heritage? Is there a good (or any) reason not to consider a different type of portrayal? What does the character lose/gain by looking differently now than when conceived in the very different culture decades ago?

People rarely seem to have a problem with diversity, they have a problem when their favorites are changed to accommodate the need for diversity, as opposed to using original characters who were created for that reason, yet are sitting on the shelves without being used, or create more diverse characters in general. Unlike decades ago, in this day and age it's no longer seen as a "risk" to have characters reflect society and there's just something weird about the idea that you should not care how the character looks should that character happen to be white. Raceswapping Black Canary isn't a problem in itself, it's the philosophy behind raceswapping that fans should just accept it without question is what I believe people usually tend to have a problem with. The more fans get browbeaten that they're bad human beings if they choose to question this type of changes, the more they would keep doing it, because people generally don't like being treated like that.

[The_Lurk]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/comicbo...-calvin-ellis/

I'd be down with this.

Neat!

And cool that hes nerd enough to even know him

[The_Lurk]

No disrespect.
In the topic of race bending historically white characters/diversity
A lily white movie cast is not desireable in an era of actually wanting to reflect what the world looks like in the big screen.
Institutionalized Racism is the main factor for most characters being White. When Black Canary was created, it would of been have unheard of for the character to be otherwise. White was the default “normal”. No longer. The question becomes “Why couldn’t this character have this heritage? Is there a good (or any) reason not to consider a different type of portrayal? What does the character lose/gain by looking differently now than when conceived in the very different culture decades ago?

Ellen Pompeo nailed it...

It is disrespectful when they say "We do not want to bother with the effort of a Vixen; a Bumblebee, a Black Narcissus**, a Natasha Irons (altough that could be a bit tough without a STEEL introduction)." and the moment they take a character and pull out the Sharpie like they did with Black Canary they do say it. I'm not saying they have to add blonde white Black Canary. I say if they have to add Black Canary she has to be a blonde white bombshell and if they do not want another blonde white bombshell they should do add another character entirely. Is it harder? According to the "general audience" comments: no; they apparently do not give a **** at all. So not doing it is being disrespectful to original black characters that DOES need exposure much more that a blackfaced one.

** BN is relatively new AFAIK ((edit: Cyborg Rebirth series. Get them; they are good.)). IMO just more reason to give her exposure if the goal would actually be empowering diversity; by strengthening original characters:

[Agent Z]

It is disrespectful when they say "We do not want to bother with the effort of a Vixen; a Bumblebee, a Black Narcissus**, a Natasha Irons (altough that could be a bit tough without a STEEL introduction)." and the moment they take a character and pull out the Sharpie like they did with Black Canary they do say it. I'm not saying they have to add blonde white Black Canary. I say if they have to add Black Canary she has to be a blonde white bombshell and if they do not want another blonde white bombshell they should do add another character entirely. Is it harder? According to the "general audience" comments: no; they apparently do not give a **** at all. So not doing it is being disrespectful to original black characters that DOES need exposure much more that a blackfaced one.

** BN is relatively new AFAIK ((edit: Cyborg Rebirth series. Get them; they are good.)). IMO just more reason to give her exposure if the goal would actually be empowering diversity; by strengthening original characters:

I think it's a leap to say they aren't bothering with Vixen or Natasha Irons just because they have a black Dinah Lance. The MCU racebended Hiemdall and Mordo but it didn't leave out Falcon, War Machine and Black Panther. And the DCEU used Cyborg before Black Canary so it isn't like they aren't open to using characters who were originally black.

[Last Son of Krypton]

[Thirteen]

It is disrespectful when they say "We do not want to bother with the effort of a Vixen; a Bumblebee, a Black Narcissus**, a Natasha Irons (altough that could be a bit tough without a STEEL introduction)." and the moment they take a character and pull out the Sharpie like they did with Black Canary they do say it.

None of those characters have any connection to the Birds of Prey franchise nor the story being told here.

I think it's a leap to say they aren't bothering with Vixen or Natasha Irons just because they have a black Dinah Lance. The MCU racebended Hiemdall and Mordo but it didn't leave out Falcon, War Machine and Black Panther. And the DCEU used Cyborg before Black Canary so it isn't like they aren't open to using characters who were originally black.

Also this. Diversity elsewhere does not preclude other characters being used elsewhere.

People rarely seem to have a problem with diversity, they have a problem when their favorites are changed to accommodate the need for diversity, as opposed to using original characters who were created for that reason, yet are sitting on the shelves without being used, or create more diverse characters in general. Unlike decades ago, in this day and age it's no longer seen as a "risk" to have characters reflect society and there's just something weird about the idea that you should not care how the character looks should that character happen to be white. Raceswapping Black Canary isn't a problem in itself, it's the philosophy behind raceswapping that fans should just accept it without question is what I believe people usually tend to have a problem with. The more fans get browbeaten that they're bad human beings if they choose to question this type of changes, the more they would keep doing it, because people generally don't like being treated like that.

Browbeaten?
Looking at the posts attacking the casting of actresses of color (in the case of Canary and even Starfire), and the charge that "she looks like a street walker" when the character being portrayed wears MUCH less conservative attire regularly. Harassment of the actresses propelling them from social media.
https://www.fortressofsolitude.co.za...canary-racist/
https://www.vox.com/2018/7/27/176189...cism-anna-diop

...remind me again WHO is being browbeaten here?

[Korath]

None of those characters have any connection to the Birds of Prey franchise nor the story being told here.

Then make some.

There isn't any reasonable explanation for race-bending Black Canary over adding an actual black character from DC's stable to the BoP team.

Especially when said team is forming on-screen. Superhero movies must not be (or at least shouldn't be) carbon copy of what happens in the comics.

Some elements have to be respected, and if DC wants to push more diversity in its movies, he can either broaden the size of a team, or actually deliver some movie about a black hero, man or woman.

[Johnny]

Browbeaten?
Looking at the posts attacking the casting of actresses of color (in the case of Canary and even Starfire), and the charge that "she looks like a street walker" when the character being portrayed wears MUCH less conservative attire regularly. Harassment of the actresses propelling them from social media.
https://www.fortressofsolitude.co.za...canary-racist/
https://www.vox.com/2018/7/27/176189...cism-anna-diop

...remind me again WHO is being browbeaten here?

Do you find it interesting how the entertainment media only tends to cover this type of small vocal minority of idiots? Am I supposed to believe that everyone who had a problem with Black Canary's casting reacted the same way as this article mentions? Why is it they never cover people with legitimate complaints who have no issues with representation in superhero movies and just don't want their favorites to keep being raceswapped "because it's 2019". Why is it they never covered the people who had legitimate complaints with some of The Witcher's casting and only covered those few imbeciles making racist comments. The fans are being browbeaten because they're constantly being conflated with select few idiots who are the only people the media covers because it gives them the type of headlines they want. It's fine to point out there's still rotten apples like that and people like Anna Diop, Tony Revolori or Kelly Marie Tran do have my sympathies, but the media should stop conflating the few morons with everyone else who's unhappy about those changes. Look at your own comment, you basically ignored everything I said and instantly went to give examples about that extreme minority of fools when those were not the people I was talking about. The fans that I was talking about(as in 99% of the fandom) should have every right to express themselves when they don't like how their favorites are being portrayed and they should not be afraid to speak up because of some notion going around that as long as the original character is white, you should not care how that character looks in movies or TV because that's supposed to be some irrelevant aspect of them.

[Keyotheseasons]

None of those characters have any connection to the Birds of Prey franchise nor the story being told here.

To be fair, neither does Harley aside from being female and being from Gotham. And if those loose connections are enough to warrant her being in the spotlight in a Birds of Prey movie, while completely omitting Barbara Gordon, then you can easily insert or create a character to fit the diversity that they are trying to achieve.

These changes are often made to appeal to the "general audience" and if the general audience doesn't know about Harley not having a direct connection to the Birds of Prey than they won't know about Vixen not having that connection, for example.

[Agent Z]

Then make some.

There isn't any reasonable explanation for race-bending Black Canary over adding an actual black character from DC's stable to the BoP team.

Do you seriously think creating a black character from scratch or using one from DC's comics won't be met with backlash? Look at the number of people whining about Cyborg being in Justice League and Doom Patrol. Hell, go further back to people whining over John Stewart being used in the Justice League cartoon over Hal Jordan and Kyle Rayner.

If Smollet were playing Vixen or some new character, the only thing that would change is that she'd be getting crap for playing those characters not for playing Black Canary.

Especially when said team is forming on-screen. Superhero movies must not be (or at least shouldn't be) carbon copy of what happens in the comics.

I agree. So why is a black woman playing Black Canary so objectionable?

Some elements have to be respected, and if DC wants to push more diversity in its movies, he can either broaden the size of a team, or actually deliver some movie about a black hero, man or woman.

They're already doing that with a movie featuring Black Canary, Renee Montoya and Cass Cain. Hell, the last one has never been a Bird of Prey before.

Do you find it interesting how the entertainment media only tends to cover this type of small vocal minority of idiots? Am I supposed to believe that everyone who had a problem with Black Canary's casting reacted the same way as this article mentions? Why is it they never cover people with legitimate complaints who have no issues with representation in superhero movies and just don't want their favorites to keep being raceswapped "because it's 2019". Why is it they never covered the people who had legitimate complaints with some of The Witcher's casting and only covered those few imbeciles making racist comments. The fans are being browbeaten because they're constantly being conflated with select few idiots who are the only people the media covers because it gives them the type of headlines they want. It's fine to point out there's still rotten apples like that and people like Anna Diop, Tony Revolori or Kelly Marie Tran do have my sympathies, but the media should stop conflating the few morons with everyone else who's unhappy about those changes. Look at your own comment, you basically ignored everything I said and instantly went to give examples about that extreme minority of fools when those were not the people I was talking about.

Twenty years ago the media didn't care about fans being dicks to actors and crew members. Jake Lloyd got bullied out of an acting career and Ahmed Best nearly took his own life because of people like this and because the rest of the world didn't give a damn. Hell, this type of ugliness directed towards people connected to the DCEU isn't even a new thing. I remember people calling for the Reeves estate to sue Snyder, fans actually sending a petition to the White House to have Snyder and Affleck removed from Batman vs Superman and the sexist, body shaming comments directed towards Gal Gadot and Amy Adams.

And the thing about a vocal minority is that they become the face of an entire fandom when they're left unchecked. That isn't the fault of the media, that's the fault of fans not making sure the assholes are kept in line. I get that it sucks to be lumped in with people who harass, insult and threaten actors but that isn't the fault of the media. That's the fault of fans who make an entire fandom look bad and a fandom that is apathetic to this behavior.

[Thirteen]

Then make some.

There isn't any reasonable explanation for race-bending Black Canary over adding an actual black character from DC's stable to the BoP team.

Especially when said team is forming on-screen. Superhero movies must not be (or at least shouldn't be) carbon copy of what happens in the comics.

Some elements have to be respected, and if DC wants to push more diversity in its movies, he can either broaden the size of a team, or actually deliver some movie about a black hero, man or woman.

Ignores the "story they decided to tell" part of things. And misrepresents the sequence of events.
Producers chose a story of Harley Quinn intersecting with the Birds of Prey. Then cast the characters and made a conscious effort to make the cast reflect the real world.
Choosing another story or altering the story to include an unrelated character is AT LEAST as "offensive" as being open to a different type of actress, no?

[Korath]

I agree. So why is a black woman playing Black Canary so objectionable?

For the same reason that Scarlett Johansson playing Major Kusanagi was tasteless and objectionable. Race-bending a character, especially when others could be used in its place, is always wrong with me. If DC and Warner didn't want two white women in their team, I'm fine with that. But race-bending Black Canary apparently just because they needed a black woman is stupid and objectionable. If they wanted a Gothamite, why not use Onyx ? Or drop Black Narcissius here, or Natasha Irons, or any other black character who would easily fit this team in the making.

And who cares about people bitching because said character is black and not from the BoP comics ? They'll complain about any deviation of the comics/use of a black actress/actor anyway.

Ignores the "story they decided to tell" part of things. And misrepresents the sequence of events.
Producers chose a story of Harley Quinn intersecting with the Birds of Prey. Then cast the characters and made a conscious effort to make the cast reflect the real world.
Choosing another story or altering the story to include an unrelated character is AT LEAST as "offensive" as being open to a different type of actress, no?

Then why was it that Black Canary needed to be racebent ?

What is the reason, behind hollow tokenism of what "2019 is"? What role does her skin color plays in the story ?

Apparently, nothing. Perhaps it'll end having a huge role, but I doubt it, not with an ensemble movie which can't have that many time to present all the character's backgrounds in depth.

Since they wanted a new story with a team who had always involved Barbara Gordon but wouldn't, why not change Black Canary for an actual black hero ?

For me, it is as legitimate to criticize this move than it was to attack Ghost in the Shell for whitewashing.

[Stromberg]

For me, I don't care about Canary's race swapping in and of itself. Everyone keeps focusing on them casting a Black woman but if just the race is an issue for you, she's half white.
The reason I have an issue with it is because of the lack of never for it simple because a Black actress had to be the "Black" Canary.

[Johnny]

Twenty years ago the media didn't care about fans being dicks to actors and crew members. Jake Lloyd got bullied out of an acting career and Ahmed Best nearly took his own life because of people like this and because the rest of the world didn't give a damn. Hell, this type of ugliness directed towards people connected to the DCEU isn't even a new thing. I remember people calling for the Reeves estate to sue Snyder, fans actually sending a petition to the White House to have Snyder and Affleck removed from Batman vs Superman and the sexist, body shaming comments directed towards Gal Gadot and Amy Adams.

And the thing about a vocal minority is that they become the face of an entire fandom when they're left unchecked. That isn't the fault of the media, that's the fault of fans not making sure the assholes are kept in line. I get that it sucks to be lumped in with people who harass, insult and threaten actors but that isn't the fault of the media. That's the fault of fans who make an entire fandom look bad and a fandom that is apathetic to this behavior.

Why is it our job to keep these people in line? How do we even do that. If I said I didn't want a character to be raceswapped, in the media's eyes that would make me no different than those people regardless of what reasons I provided. They don't care about that, they see an opportunity to generate clicks and they go for it. There's nothing the media likes more than sensationalizing a story, however embellished it may or may not be. When they cover this type of individuals they don't make it a point that it's not the usual behavior of the fandom, they don't make it a point that the geek community across the board has always been diverse and inclusive, they only choose to cover the most toxic portions of it to the point where that's all the fans are presented to be. That's not our fault, it's not our responsibility to police everyone's behavior, it's not my responsibility to somehow try to rein those people in because they didn't like Rose Tico or didn't like that Gal wasn't "chesty" enough. There should be more honest reporting here and that's not our job, it's theirs.

[The Darknight Detective]

The thing for me is, if you're going to have a diverse cast, WB is either going to use existing or brand-new POC characters to replace long-standing white characters who would normally have appeared in that setting (which is fine by me, BTW) or change the race of an existing white character(s) (also fine by me). What you can't have are POC characters who pop in, say "Hi!" and then disappear for the rest of the film.