DC/WB Films/Worlds (No Spoilers)

[Frontier]

I'm sure tons of kids have done the Wonder Woman pose or said "Shazam," if we're trying to make this into a competition.

Live Action movie side would fight you tooth and nail to keep a lot of those guys out.

Booster, John, and the Hawks have been rumored for movies for a while now.

[Blind Wedjat]

IS this a joke?

Shocker, the brand that has been crapping out films every year for almost two decades straight has the highest grossing movies and as we all know, having a higher box office is representative of lasting cultural legacy and fanbase? (Hint: its not)

Except, they're not. They're doing Fortnite dances.

Even if that was true, so what? You seem to be under the impression that, "Well because Marvel is winning now, they won forever!" Except we know that's not how pop culture works. Things come and go, I shouldn't have tell someone that.

Also can I call out the disingenuous talking point sprouted by MCU fans that DC and Marvel were somehow on equal terms and that Marvel just out-played DC? Marvel has always been the larger company, regardless if the publishes prints good or bad comics. Even before the MCU, there were way more Marvel films than DC ones.

I'm not sure what this reply (and replies like these) is supposed to mean. Yes, the MCU is said to have variety, whether you don't think it does or not. So does the DCEU, but that just started recently.

The MCU also has high box office and cultural impact, and a HUGE fanbase. Implying it doesn't at this point just feels like ignoring reality or being negative for no reason. The fact that Avengers (2012) is a very memorable movie, Guardians' soundtrack (and the movie itself) was very popular, Black Panther is one of the most talked about, acclaimed and referenced popular film this decade, and both Infinity War and Endgame turned Thanos into a movie villain icon and meme proves it has cultural impact right now (which will likely last).

A lot of popular film culture today is dictated by the MCU, as "Marvel movies" are referenced a lot in other forms of entertainment and regular talk, many movies have been said to borrow from their formula (including the DCEU), and many modern film catchphrases come from MCU films ("I am Groot," "Wakanda Forever," "I am Iron Man," many Thanos quotes).

Kids may be doing Fortnite dances, and they're also dressing up or cosplaying as MCU characters every year for Halloween or any costume party. After 11 years, they're still going to see these movies again and again, and we've seen once highflying franchises crap out even after a shorter period of time (Transformers), so that is a sign of impact. We've seen a few of the characters reach and connect with people on a more personal level, leading them to be discussed in think-pieces, or the films themselves do that. And lots of kids say those catchphrases. There's no point denying that, or any of the above. I'm no big DCEU fan or whatever, but I wouldn't go around pretending like there aren't people that watch these movies and like them, or that so far it isn't a commercial success. Obviously none of those things are true.

[Frontier]

Isn't Teen Titans Go! one of the most popular cartoon shows on right now? I don't know what that says about DC's brand .

[Dr. Ellingham]

Also can I call out the disingenuous talking point sprouted by MCU fans that DC and Marvel were somehow on equal terms and that Marvel just out-played DC? Marvel has always been the larger company, regardless if the publishes prints good or bad comics.

Yes. Since ~1980 or so , Marvel has been beating DC at... pretty much everything.

Pretending their brand opportunities are equal is just naive. Up through 2010, DC had made films for just two of their cape properties. And the reason is they have two powerhouse brands, and everything else is B-list. Hell, WB knew this when they bought DC back in the day.

Hopefully they can build up their other IPs, but the first step in replicating Marvel's movie success would be replicating Marvel's 2-3 decades of dominance in comics, merchandise and animation across the 80s and 90s.

(Which isn't a realistic ask in today's media.)

[SiegePerilous02]

The animation side had no issue using the likes of John, Hawkgirl, Static, Booster Gold or Young Justice kids.

Live Action movie side would fight you tooth and nail to keep a lot of those guys out.

Meanwhile kids are saying "I am Groot." or "Wakanda Forever."

Why would the movie division use the YJ kids when they can barely get the preceding generation off the ground? Don't they need to be established first? Most of them have either never had movies or only just recently got them.

The GL film in development hell has been rumored to feature John and Hal, they likely do not have a vendetta against John. They gave a race bent Aquaman a movie and included the new Shazam kids, and the BOP film has Renee Montoya and Cass Cain, which are complete surprises.

Marvel deserves a lot of credit, but I feel you're giving them too much. Of the characters they had access to, they went with the big name (white) Avengers first and they got sequels before their biggest name black character got his own movie. And they took advantage of Spider-Man as soon as he was available, to the point I believe they pushed BP and CM back to make room for him in their slate. They knew when to take risks, but also when to play it safe. Meanwhile the competition beat them to the punch with the first solo female superhero film. DC sat on WW way too long, but they knew they had something Marvel didn't at the time and utilized her. Carol is mostly being placed as WW's cross company equivalent because they were really lacking one and all their best female characters were tied up with teams they didn't have access to. And as much of a disappointment as Squad was, it had a more diverse cast than anything Marvel was putting out at the time, and that was noticed.

[Pinsir]

I'm not sure what this reply (and replies like these) is supposed to mean. Yes, the MCU is said to have variety, whether you don't think it does or not. So does the DCEU, but that just started recently.

This isn't even a controversial point, most MCU fans will admit that most MCU movies share a consistent tone.

The MCU also has high box office and cultural impact, and a HUGE fanbase. Implying it doesn't at this point just feels like ignoring reality or being negative for no reason.

This is what really irks me about MCU fans. You came to this thread with seemingly no purpose other than to bash the DCEU and when when I bite back you respond with "you're just being negative!" What a ridiculous double standard, why can't MCU fans take criticism?

A lot of popular film culture today is dictated by the MCU, as "Marvel movies" are referenced a lot in other forms of entertainment and regular talk, many movies have been said to borrow from their formula (including the DCEU),

Sorry, but Aquaman and Shazam are not borrowing from the 'Marvel formula.' Shazam in particular is very close to the Sam Raimi Spider-Man films if anything. I know Marvel fans are under the impression that any superhero film with a joke is 'Marvel' inspired, but there were jokes in superhero movies before the MCU.

and many modern film catchphrases come from MCU films ("I am Groot," "Wakanda Forever," "I am Iron Man," many Thanos quotes).

The only only one of these 'quotes' that is a thing is the Thanos snap and, well, congrats after 10 years and 22 films, the MCU finally got a memorable moment!

Kids may be doing Fortnite dances, and they're also dressing up or cosplaying as MCU characters every year for Halloween or any costume party.

Last year, no kids showed up at my house wearing Marvel costumes, none, but kids showed up in Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman costumes. Not to mention I see people wearing Superman shirts on a near daily basis.

After 11 years, they're still going to see these movies again and again, and we've seen once highflying franchises crap out even after a shorter period of time (Transformers), so that is a sign of impact.

You do realize that not only is Transformers from 80's, but the first animated Transformers film was a major cultural touchstone. Children left the theatres crying because Optimus Prime died Here is a video from hbomberguy (who also concurs with me that the MCU is garbo) discussing the film and its influence on him; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7f26gVlDQI

We've seen a few of the characters reach and connect with people on a more personal level,

Why is it the audiance cried in the theatre when Optimus Prime died, but not when Tony Stark or Black Widow did?

And lots of kids say those catchphrases.

What is your obsession with catchphrases? Even if the the four catchphrases you mentioned were actually being said, out of 24+ films that is a failing grade. If the MCU was as you keep describing it, only composed of like Avengers, Black Panther and GoT then yeah, it would be okay, but I know titles like IM2-3, Thor 1-2, GoT 2, Captain Marvel, Age of Ultron, AM 1-2, and Dr. Strange exist and these titles are indefensibly bad/mediocre (the ones not mentioned are mostly mediocre as well).

There's no point denying that, or any of the above. I'm no big DCEU fan or whatever, but I wouldn't go around pretending like there aren't people that watch these movies and like them, or that so far it isn't a commercial success. Obviously none of those things are true.

It is getting annoying when people routinely misconstrue my criticism of the MCU as if I'm saying people don't watch these films or like them. I think it just goes to show you how ingrained the idea that box office success equals a strong cultural resonance among MCU fans, even though it doesn't. More people saw Avatar in theatres than Avengers Endgame (yes they did, look at the box office numbers accounted for ticket inflation) and the cultural legacy of that film is negligible.

[cgh]

“Joker” is looking like an Oscar contender: https://comicbook.com/dc/amp/2019/07...ar-nominations

[Pinsir]

Yes. Since ~1980 or so , Marvel has been beating DC at... pretty much everything.

Pretending their brand opportunities are equal is just naive. Up through 2010, DC had made films for just two of their cape properties. And the reason is they have two powerhouse brands, and everything else is B-list. Hell, WB knew this when they bought DC back in the day.

Hopefully they can build up their other IPs, but the first step in replicating Marvel's movie success would be replicating Marvel's 2-3 decades of dominance in comics, merchandise and animation across the 80s and 90s.

(Which isn't a realistic ask in today's media.)

Uh, what? My whole point isn't that Marvel is bigger because its better, its just a bigger brand and DC fans have to accept that. I mean, you'd never argue that McDonald's is the biggest hamburger chain in the world because they make the best hamburgers. If Marvel produced good comics and films then I'd be a fan of their stuff, but they don't so I'm not.

Also, DC did produce the best comics in the 80's and 90's, as well as the best animated shows.

[byrd156]

Isn't Teen Titans Go! one of the most popular cartoon shows on right now? I don't know what that says about DC's brand .

DC has a brand??

I snark but seriously it doesn't feel like they have one. The DCEU is starting to get it's feet back after a really long period of fails. DC had the chance to fill in the gap on the tv side after Netflix and Marvel parted ways. Titans was trash, Swamp Thing was already canceled before it even aired along with all the excitement from that show and YJ has been kinda eh after a much demanded return. Doom Patrol is incredible but feels like it's very under the radar, maybe Titans season 2 will be a hit along with more YJ later on and Stargirl but it really feels like DC/WB failed tremendously to pick up on the streaming market. Everything they do doesn't feel planned out the way it does at Marvel. That's the key difference and the reason for Marvel's success.

[Frontier]

DC has a brand??

I snark but seriously it doesn't feel like they have one. The DCEU is starting to get it's feet back after a really long period of fails. DC had the chance to fill in the gap on the tv side after Netflix and Marvel parted ways. Titans was trash, Swamp Thing was already canceled before it even aired along with all the excitement from that show and YJ has been kinda eh after a much demanded return. Doom Patrol is incredible but feels like it's very under the radar, maybe Titans season 2 will be a hit along with more YJ later on and Stargirl but it really feels like DC/WB failed tremendously to pick up on the streaming market. Everything they do doesn't feel planned out the way it does at Marvel. That's the key difference and the reason for Marvel's success.

Considering YJ, Titans, and Swamp Thing seem extremely popular as far as streaming series are concerned I don't think DC has failed at all on that front.

[byrd156]

Considering YJ, Titans, and Swamp Thing seem extremely popular as far as streaming series are concerned I don't think DC has failed at all on that front.

Unless they un-cancel Swamp Thing that popularity doesn't really mean much.

I don't really hear a lot about the DCU shows outside of fan circles, especially not near as much as the Marvel Netflix shows. Daredevil alone has driven more news, hype, etc. in and out of those circles. This was DC's big chance and it feels like they missed it.

[Agent Z]

Unless they un-cancel Swamp Thing that popularity doesn't really mean much.

I don't really hear a lot about the DCU shows outside of fan circles, especially not near as much as the Marvel Netflix shows. Daredevil alone has driven more news, hype, etc. in and out of those circles. This was DC's big chance and it feels like they missed it.

Titans and YJ have both been streaming hits and the latter was recently renewed for a fourth season. The popularity of the Marvel Netflix shows is equally meaningless as long as they are cancelled.

[Frontier]

Unless they un-cancel Swamp Thing that popularity doesn't really mean much.

I don't really hear a lot about the DCU shows outside of fan circles, especially not near as much as the Marvel Netflix shows. Daredevil alone has driven more news, hype, etc. in and out of those circles. This was DC's big chance and it feels like they missed it.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like I've seen a lot of coverage for Titans, Doom Patrol, and Young Justice.

[Blind Wedjat]

This isn't even a controversial point, most MCU fans will admit that most MCU movies share a consistent tone.

This is what really irks me about MCU fans. You came to this thread with seemingly no purpose other than to bash the DCEU and when when I bite back you respond with "you're just being negative!" What a ridiculous double standard, why can't MCU fans take criticism?

Sorry, but Aquaman and Shazam are not borrowing from the 'Marvel formula.' Shazam in particular is very close to the Sam Raimi Spider-Man films if anything. I know Marvel fans are under the impression that any superhero film with a joke is 'Marvel' inspired, but there were jokes in superhero movies before the MCU.

The only only one of these 'quotes' that is a thing is the Thanos snap and, well, congrats after 10 years and 22 films, the MCU finally got a memorable moment!

Last year, no kids showed up at my house wearing Marvel costumes, none, but kids showed up in Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman costumes. Not to mention I see people wearing Superman shirts on a near daily basis.

You do realize that not only is Transformers from 80's, but the first animated Transformers film was a major cultural touchstone. Children left the theatres crying because Optimus Prime died Here is a video from hbomberguy (who also concurs with me that the MCU is garbo) discussing the film and its influence on him; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7f26gVlDQI

Why is it the audiance cried in the theatre when Optimus Prime died, but not when Tony Stark or Black Widow did?

What is your obsession with catchphrases? Even if the the four catchphrases you mentioned were actually being said, out of 24+ films that is a failing grade. If the MCU was as you keep describing it, only composed of like Avengers, Black Panther and GoT then yeah, it would be okay, but I know titles like IM2-3, Thor 1-2, GoT 2, Captain Marvel, Age of Ultron, AM 1-2, and Dr. Strange exist and these titles are indefensibly bad/mediocre (the ones not mentioned are mostly mediocre as well).

It is getting annoying when people routinely misconstrue my criticism of the MCU as if I'm saying people don't watch these films or like them. I think it just goes to show you how ingrained the idea that box office success equals a strong cultural resonance among MCU fans, even though it doesn't. More people saw Avatar in theatres than Avengers Endgame (yes they did, look at the box office numbers accounted for ticket inflation) and the cultural legacy of that film is negligible.

First of all, calm down. I'm not trying to start anything, but based on your own replies, it sounds like you're the one with an issue. And yes, that makes you sound negative, and none of the things you actually said count as criticism. There are many MCU fans who disagree about the franchise films having the same tone, because (as ignored or unknown by many) tone goes beyond something being light-hearted or dark. The style or genre used as inspiration counts just as much, and many MCU films have dabbled in satire, political thrillers, family dramas, and spy/heist films.

Granted I've not seen Shazam (and I never mentioned it for that reason), but critics pointed out in their social media reactions that Aquaman was very similar to Thor: Ragnarok and Phase 1 MCU films. That's not me saying that. Some people have pointed out the (rather shallow) comparisons Wonder Woman and The First Avenger share. Nobody is saying this doesn't go both ways, as Captain Marvel was compared to Wonder Woman a lot.

The MCU also had many memorable moments before Infinity War in the first Avengers. Again, you don't have to agree with that but that's what it is really. There's a difference between what you think and what the general audience believes. And whether or not no kids showed up to your own house dressed as a Marvel character is meaningless when Black Panther costumes were reported to be the most popular Halloween looks last year (with other MCU characters making that list almost every year). This is like me ignoring that Joker and Harley Quinn costumes were the most popular ones in 2016 because I don't like the DCEU.

I'm talking about the Michael Bay films. It was a very successful (and popular) film franchise until it started crapping out both in terms of quality/reception and box office revenue. My point of bringing that up is since after 11 years (and way more films) that didn't happen to the MCU, they clearly have something on their side other franchises do not. And again, the audience didn't cry in your theatre during Endgame is also meaningless when it happened in multiple theatres as evidenced on social media and YouTube. Your own experience is not a fact.

Neither am I "obsessed" with catchphrases. I'm simply using them as an example to show evidence of cultural impact because they are a good example to use. "May the Force be with you" is an instantly recognisable catchphrase from the Star Wars franchise and is evidence it has impact. So is "Wakanda Forever". And even if a few MCU films have one, so what? There's been how many Alien/Predator films, and only one has an iconic line from it ("Get to the chopper!"). Same thing with the Terminator films ("I'll be back") and Die Hard ("Yippee Ki-Yay, Motherf*cker"). Are you gonna dispute those franchises having lasting impact on film as a whole because of that?

Again, nobody would misconstrue your 'criticism' of the MCU if it even was that. Your posts can basically be summed up as "I'm going to ignore how popular and impactful the MCU is because I don't like it/I don't think it's good," which is anything but criticism. That's like me coming to this thread saying "The DCEU is an unsuccessful franchise because I don't like it/I don't think the films are good." Even if the films may be bad (which can be objective and subjective), it's not criticism. It's just be negative and complaining. Criticism is "I don't like the DCEU because I feel their films have directorial, narrative and structural issues" while elaborating on those things. Comparing Avatar to Endgame also does not matter much, considering Endgame was by far the more liked film out of the two, has been celebrated a lot more than Avatar was on an emotional level, and comes from a beloved franchise. Box office may not be the number one determinant of cultural impact, but it still is one and can be used as evidence of such. Basically, not every huge box office blockbuster (including MCU ones) has cultural impact, but most blockbusters that have cultural impact also have box office success as evidence of said impact. Black Panther and Captain Marvel both grossed over a billion dollars, but it's obvious BP had more cultural impact that CM, and BP's box office gross is evidence of its impact.

Before I derail the thread any further, all I'm trying to say is that ignoring what made the MCU the success it is isn't good for the DCEU, as evidence by the first four years. It's not about copying how they make movies or being funnier, but understanding why almost every individual film worked on some level (some doing better than others) and why in the long and short run, the franchise enjoyed things the DCEU did not. Something most people joke about regarding the MCU is how secretive things are, but compare that to how much bad press the DCEU got from one fired person or another having something to say. You have DPs, script writers, stuntmen, concept artists all saying one thing or the other about how this film didn't work, and how this vision wasn't realised and all that. Clearly NDAs aren't as tight over there in WB as it is in Disney. That's just one of many examples.

[Blind Wedjat]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like I've seen a lot of coverage for Titans, Doom Patrol, and Young Justice.

Young Justice definitely. Haven't seen much of Doom Patrol though.