DC/WB Films/Worlds (No Spoilers)

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

I’m still expecting we’re going to get the same movie, with less jokes, a slightly healthier looking Ben Affleck, a human looking Superman, and a 6 or 7 minute time travel knightmare sequence thrown in somewhere.

[manwhohaseverything]

I’m still expecting we’re going to get the same movie, with less jokes, a slightly healthier looking Ben Affleck, a human looking Superman, and a 6 or 7 minute time travel knightmare sequence thrown in somewhere.

Didn't they say only a small portion of what snyder filmed was used. Snyder's cut 4 hours long.how can that be just Whedon's cut?

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

Didn't they say only a small portion of what snyder filmed was used. Snyder's cut 4 hours long.how can that be just Whedon's cut?

Yeah different versions of the same scenes. Steppenwolf and the color of the super suit will look different, some dialogue will be added or cut out. But it’ll probably still be basically the same movie. Maybe I’ll be proven wrong. We’ll see.

[manwhohaseverything]

Yeah different versions of the same scenes. Steppenwolf and the color of the super suit will look different, some dialogue will be added or cut out. But it’ll probably still be basically the same movie. Maybe I’ll be proven wrong. We’ll see.

Whedon had rewrites of pages done and reshoots. That still wouldn't account for the length difference. Sylas stone dies in snyder version. Did that happen in Whedon cut?

[Lightning Rider]

David Goyer Discusses The Decision To Have Superman Kill In Man Of Steel.

Interesting tidbits here, and Goyer makes a good point when he says the movies should always be treated as elseworlds stories to the comics canon. That’s how I will always view Snyder’s DC films, and that’s kind of why I enjoy them as an alternative ‘what-if’ stories. Goyer also talks about a cut scene from the script where Clark is hunting with Pa Kent and they kill a deer, and Clark immediately expresses grief over the action to which Pa Kent tells him, “it’s a powerful thing to take life even when you’re forced to take life.’ That would be a good way to foreshadow Supes eventually having to take Zod’s life.

Interesting tidbits and I really respect the sincerity. Whether you like the choices or not, Man of Steel was a pretty intentional story with a bold vision. I'm not sure I agree totally with the "Elseworlds" notion (to me the films should be more of an amalgamation of the best parts of the character's history), but totally agree that superheroes are constantly being reinvented. That deer scene is interesting too. I think it might have been too on the nose and not really "redeemed" that last scene, we probably needed more reflection and verbal acknowledgement form Clark instead of cutting to a flippant aftermath scene. But interesting nonetheless.

I'll give the rest of the interview a listen at some point.

[manwhohaseverything]

The scene would have given clark, a gohan moment.

Even if the scene was put in. People would still be moaning about how pa kent is bad for teaching a kid that.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Superman is not known for killing when there is alternate means to subdue the opponent. He has killed zod, doomsday.. Etc. Siegel and shuster's superman has a list of body count. Want me to give picture of siegel and shuster's superman throwing people around.as if normally people "like" killing,let alone superman. He isn't psycopath. What kind of nonsense is that? If lex puts superman in that situation in which he has to protect the world. Sure, he would no doubt end lex luthor. Dude, i have read exile. You don't need to tell me how sombre it was. And this wasn't sombre affair? The guy was still moping about it in bvs(btw! It sucked) .If you want him to go on a pilgrimage to attone for stopping a "space hitler" from continuing the genocide. Then that's baaad. Superman shouldn't be some navel gazer like that(which he is both as postcrisis superman and dceu superman ) .He decided to wear the strongman suit because he knew he would have to make hard choices. He isn't a coward. He is the man of action. Superman values life. That doesn't mean he is a god. He is only human. He is prone to human contradictions. He fights for truth, but is a fraud(clark kent drama). He fights for Justice, yet he is a vigilante . It is because he values life that he takes it when he absolutely has to.(other than some slippery slope dogma. There isn't much of a counter argument either)

Snyder’s Superman is never put in those situations, everything to do with him the means to end it is death – even when rescuing Martha Batman had to kill the villain and his goon squad isn’t getting from that alive. Zod and the Kryptonians – all died. When he meets Lex, his first instinct is to burning him alive with heat vision. Doomsday – needs to be killed. Lois becoming a hostage to the general, plough through the walls with the general taking the brunt of it. Lex is a non-factor after Doomsday so he goes to jail, but he’s an exception. The reason Superman isn’t put in a situation where he has a good third option is because Snyder and the writers didn’t want him in one.

The problem with Snyder’s Superman is that he has mainly two reactions to death: 1) apathy and 2) he loves to use it as a first defense. Especially in B vs S. In MoS he barely reacts to the destruction around him and never comments on it or his role in it. His scream about Zod is the most human reaction he’s had but that’s very brief and never is examined in the movies. And it’s so confusing, why is he so distraught after killing Zod? It’s not like he problems with killing before, he was going all out against other Kryptonians. If he killed one of them would he react the same? I don’t know because the movies never examines it. Another odd reaction was his apathy to the criminals Batman was fighting at the docks, to Superman they may as well not exist. We don’t get his opinion on them and he never learns that their leader was the same one who held Martha hostage.

Under no circumstance should he go through with killing Lex even if Lex put him in that position, the writers need to allow for him to get out of it. He’s not Wonder Woman.

Superman wasn’t distraught over Zod in B vs S. He was a mess, but we don’t get into his head about why he does things. We know more about batman’s thoughts then him. Those were examples of him dealing with trauma in the comics he didn’t need to do follow it to the letter, rathe than ignoring it like nothing happened. This isn’t about cowardace, it’s about writing him like a human being and that he’s not meant to be a Hard Man Making Hard Decision type. Apollo shows more doubt in doing horrific things to stop villains and he’s in The Authority. Snyder’s films want him to be a god, that’s why he’s distant with humanity and he does those strange scenes like when he was in Mexico. In prior films they were overboard equating him with being Christ, Snyder managed to one up them in Man of Steel!

He can be human and have moments of weakness and talk to his friends and families about his doubts, this is what he’s supposed to do. Snyder’s doesn’t do this as much as he should. He’ll make a sad expression but he won’t talk to anyone about his feelings so we know what he’s thinking. Batman does this with Alfred in B vs S.

It’s about the context, this Superman did not do anything like that in the DCEU.

My argument is that Superman doesn’t kill, and while Snyder did partially base him off that Superman he left many things out. That Superman protected unions and stopped domestic abusers, all this Superman does is tackle natural disasters, be outsmarted by businessmen and fight homicidal aliens.

This isn’t entirely just about dceu. This is about Superman as whole and concept. The character has been robbed of the essence of the champion of the oppressed. He isn't written as a champion. He is written as some idiotic fly paragon messiah.The sooner the character escapes from comics code driven portrayal that resulted him in becoming nothing but a stooge, pushover, "boyscout", messiah.. Etc. The better.This isn't about the code itself as well. I am fine with superman not killing. But, neither the comics or anyone else has provided me any reason Why he doesn't other than "he values life". That's a great sentiment.

I know, which is why I covered that in my last post. I disagree with this but why do you think he does this with Snyder’s movies? He’s been smarter written in the comics and has stuck up for the oppressed there, too. This Superman is more like a Dudebro than an intelligent super-hero.




Your complaints are really vague, can you give me examples of him doing these things? Stooge for who? Pushover for who? And why does Snyder’s Superman fit this criteria when he does none of those things you want to be, aside from not having the “boy scout” persona.

But, life is a contradictory thing that accommodates death. The world is full of guys who are corrupt. Ofcourse he would be put in a situation where this contradiction catches up to him. He is put in a situation that many people go through. He doesn't have an out.Morality is about limiting yourself. Batman doesn't kill because he doesn't want to go crazy and he doesn't want to become the monster he fights. Superman isn't governed by those rules.He wouldn't become the monster he fights because of he had to take a life.

And I’d like to see it in Superman, I’m not shown this in Snyder’s Superman movies. What’s Snyder’s Superman’s opinion on killing? I don’t know because he never talks about it with anyone. It’s not a plot point or a story arc, he just does things and the villain ends up dead. Superman been in corrupt worlds since Siegel and Shuster, the DCEU is no different other than being more grimdark. But why isn’t he put in those positons in Snyder’s movies? The only reason he doesn’t get an “out” is because the writers don’t want to have have one. Not many people where they’re the last line of defense against alien invasions or can rescue oil rigs without being at risk for the fire harming him.

[manwhohaseverything]

My argument is that Superman doesn’t kill, and while Snyder did partially base him off that Superman he left many things out. That Superman protected unions and stopped domestic abusers, all this Superman does is tackle natural disasters, be outsmarted by businessmen and fight homicidal aliens.

Dude, i don't have time to get into a paragraph battle right now. You seem to have not watched the films at all. Go watch it properly .i don't have time to explain the movie for you. None of what you said has been how Snyder's superman was portrayed. that's exactly the point. He wasn't supposed to have a third option where he gets an easy way. Doctors, policmen, soldiers, firefighters, conservationists.... Etc don't get to have easy way outs.If you want a superman who is basically a god who doesn't have to make hard choices. In this case not killing. Go consume those portrayals.

Nonsense ! Superman would absolutely kill lex if he is put in the situation where he was in man of steel. That doesn't make him wonder woman. You don't need to be some warrior to put in those no win situation. Btw! Postcrisis superman was hypocrite and a jerk with the whole thing about wonder woman killing maxwell lord . He was stooge in darkknight returns.he is constantly shoved in as a some messiah. He is a naive farmboy boyscout in postcrisis who is out of touch. There is **** like injustice. Your argument isn't based on superman's history. Superman kills. Point blank. Every version of the character has,except for silverage guy.The thing is superman is powerful enough to avoid it most of the time. So he does. But, aside from that superman kills.
riiiight, the guy who protected the girl from harassment doesn't protect woman. /s
Btw, superman used to throw wife beaters through walls(your charge of superman putting a guy through wall in bvs) .If clark was outsmarted by lex. Why did clark win? His symbol was not tarnished. Batman never committed murder. Superman died a good man protecting the world.Btw, new52 superman is erased and replaced because people moaned "that's not Superman".(As if, anything that resembles siegel and shuster's superman is more superman than nonsensical portrayals.)

[Steel Inquisitor]

[QUOTE=manwhohaseverything;5067796]Dude, i don't have time to get into a paragraph battle right now. You seem to have not watched the films at all. Go watch it properly . None of what you said has been how Snyder's superman was portrayed. that's exactly the point. He wasn't supposed to have a third option where he gets an easy way. Doctors, policmen, soldiers, firefighters, conservationists.... Etc don't get to have easy way outs.If you want a superman who is basically a god who doesn't have to make hard choices. In this case not killing. Go consume those portrayals.[/quopte]

I watched B vs S three times in theatres. Sure it is, that's why the movies are so controversial and his Superman is seen as a psychopath to the public. Exactly, his Superman was never meant to chose any other choices except to kill. That's the crux of what we're disagreeing with. And he's not the only superhero who does this.

Nonsense ! Superman would absolutely kill lex if he is put in the situation where he was in man of steel . That doesn't make him wonder woman. He was stooge in darkknight returns.he is constantly shoved in as a some messiah. He is a naive farmboy boyscout in postcrisis who is out of touch. There is **** like injustice. Your argument isn't based on superman's history. Superman kills. Point blank. Every version of the character has,except for silverage guy.The thing is superman is powerful enough to avoid it most of the time. So he does. But, aside from that superman kills.
riiiight, the guy who protected the girl from harassment doesn't protect woman. /s

No doubt, except we're also talking about Superman in general. In media and comics that Superman is the one who wouldn't kill Lex. Wonder Woman would have less trouble killing Lex than Superman, she's a warrior and has been in that situation before: Max Lord. It was controversial but I think that was true to the character. Dark Knight Returns isn't canon, it's a Frank Miller alternate future that's not in continuity. He's a messiah in Snyder's films! Look at his funeral and how Man of Streel connects him to Jesus. In the church they have him literally sit right next a picture of Jesus, because simply being in a crucifixion pose in Superman Returns didn't satisfy Snyder. Injustice is evil Superman.



How and whether Superman kills is important, he shouldn't be apathetic when millions of people die in his fights like he's Godzilla. His first thought when Lex threatens him shouldn't be to burn him alive. This is not what those other versions of Superman did, that's why I bought up the Post-Crisis event. That was faithful, Snyder's wasn't.

There's a whole lot more Superman in comics than Post-Crisis and Injustice.

Yeah, there is. And most versions don't do what DCEU Superman did.

Btw, superman used to throw wife beaters through walls(your charge of superman putting a guy through wall in bvs) .If clark was outsmarted by lex. Why did clark win? His symbol was not tarnished. Batman never committed murder. Superman died a good man protecting the world.Btw, new52 superman is erased and replaced because people moaned "that's not Superman".

Snyder's Superman not only ignores domestic abusers or fighting for the oppressed, in the Snyder's "realistic" depiction it becomes laughable that he won't kill someone by doing that. Superman never came close to getting lex, he had to rely on Batman and Wonder Woman to do all the work. Lex played him like a fiddle, that's why he was framed, the court exploded and why he was forced to fight Batman. Until Lex abducted Lois to lure him out he had no idea Lex was a threat, despite the fact he could have linked them had he bothered to investigate the thugs Batman was fighting. Batman committed loads of murder in B vs S. Superman only "won" by teaming up with Batman and Wonder Woman, the two who connected with each other in the movie while he was on his own getting outsmarted at every turn. The only reason he was celebrated as he was was because Snyder ignored how controversial he was in the movies but still wanted the acclaim in-universe the real Superman gets without doing the work. Superman gets replaced every few years, that's what DC does, is the Superman who stands up against police brutality not your Superman? He is mine.

[manwhohaseverything]

Dude!if you think superman was a psychopath and unempathic in man of steel. Then you didn't watch these movies. Point blank.That is all.As if canon matters in comics. The industry is built on glorified fan fiction.No, superman doesn't get replaced every few years. That's just modern nonsense.

[NaVi]

I don't understand why many Superman fans defend BvS. BvS is a film in which Batman and Superman share the limelight, but the time in front of the screen and the number of sentences that Superman has make him an extra (a true fan cannot accept this treatment), a character who does not express himself and when he does it is to doubt the world and himself, it seems that being superman is not his choice, but an obligation. In the fight against the end of the world, where Superman dies, instead of a spectacular combat in which Superman is the protagonist (the end of the world is his enemy), we see how Superman is at the bottom, how he sacrifices himself, so that ww may have his moment (but superman does not appear in a ww movie, to steal the limelight). JL Canon, Superman appears 10m, but at least he has a little revenge, Batman pays to be a ************, and Superman fights in the final fight. but in this JL, no revenge, batman has free being a son of a bitch, and the final fight, surely he is the first to fall

[manwhohaseverything]

I don't understand why many Superman fans defend BvS. BvS is a film in which Batman and Superman share the limelight, but the time in front of the screen and the number of sentences that Superman has make him an extra (a true fan cannot accept this treatment), a character who does not express himself and when he does it is to doubt the world and himself, it seems that being superman is not his choice, but an obligation. In the fight against the end of the world, where Superman dies, instead of a spectacular combat in which Superman is the protagonist (the end of the world is his enemy), we see how Superman is at the bottom, how he sacrifices himself, so that ww may have his moment (but superman does not appear in a ww movie, to steal the limelight). JL Canon, Superman appears 10m, but at least he has a little revenge, Batman pays to be a ************, and Superman fights in the final fight. but in this JL, no revenge, batman has free being a son of a bitch, and the final fight, surely he is the first to fall

Riiiight, i am supposed to be happy that superman is a one dimensional bull dozer that just quips. Essentially, a two face that flies.heh! This is one of the only superman which chooses to be superman. Others are either robots who dances to the whims and fancies of his parents or obligated to help because his royalty status. Doubting the world and yourself is a natural process. It means when he does make the choice, it thoroughly thought threw and his own.listen, i do get it superman did get short end of the stick when it comes to screen time in bvs. But, that's on batmania of the company. Not on this version of superman or snyder himself. Their idea is always "more batman".

[basbash99]

Yeah other portrayals of Superman have him constantly conveying his nobility to viewers/readers by means of dialogue or thought bubbles. Snyder made him more of an enigmatic cypher who not only rarely speaks but doesn't always display emotional reactions in situations that would seem to merit one. I think Snyder wanted Supes to come across as a more aloof, Dr Manhattan type (not surprising given that Snyder's DC knowledge seems to come entirely from Watchmen and DKR).

. The only reason he was celebrated as he was was because Snyder ignored how controversial he was in the movies but still wanted the acclaim in-universe the real Superman gets without doing the work. .

Couldn't agree more. Superman is viewed with suspicion throughout MoS but at the beginning of BvS they've built a big statue of him? Then he is viewed AGAIN with suspicion all throughout BvS but at the beginning of JL we're supposed to believe the world is mourning him? Snyder just simply couldn't bring himself to have Supes doing the ordinary good deeds that he does all the time in comics and other media depictions, just not extreme enough for Zack i guess.

[manwhohaseverything]

Doesn't what superman was doing in the montage count as good deeds?there are plenty paper cutouts of superman doing his thing in one of the scenes. Riiiiiight, superman is manhattan. I don't see it at all. Manhattan was never a cypher. His motivations where very in your face both in the books and movies. If you really want to thrust that interpretation. Man of steel itself has lois calling superman a cypher or ghost. snyder wanted what a how a third person views superman in his world to be pictured. So, there is a farely that element to it. But, they themselves have said what superman is. Superman is a guy trying to do the right thing,Not jesus or devil figure. But,the world doesn't view him that way.


The man sacrificed himself twice in bvs. He saved the very people who hate him and only think of him as collateral. They didn't even hesitate to blow superman up with nuclear missle.then even after that he comes back and gets stabbed through the chest for these people. Lois has written article about the death. She is a live witness to everything. Ofcourse, people realised their fault.Superman's funeral by the fickle society is treated with contempt by bruce for the same reason. These people still use superman. The my need him, that's why they mourn him. He is their "god" or "savior" come to save them. Bruce on the other hand has changed. He sees a person in clark. A man. A man has his funeral with his friends and family, not some circus.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Doesn't what superman was doing in the montage count as good deeds?there are plenty paper cutouts of superman doing his thing in one of the scenes. Riiiiiight, superman is manhattan. I don't see it at all. Manhattan was never a cypher. His motivations where very in your face both in the books and movies. If you really want to thrust that interpretation. Man of steel itself has lois calling superman a cypher or ghost. snyder wanted what a how a third person views superman in his world to be pictured. So, there is a farely that element to it. But, they themselves have said what superman is. Superman is a guy trying to do the right thing,Not jesus or devil figure. But,the world doesn't view him that way.

Superman hated what he was doing in the montage. At no point as a super=-hero or using his powers in B v S does he look like he enjoys using his powers or being a super-hero. And why doesn't he fight crime? The fact these scenes are reduced to brief montages says it all about how Snyder views Superman's life being defined by this, simply he doesn't. It's just something he does between saving the world, all of twice and the second time was in the actual movie itself, because ??? Manhattan was written clearly, we may be distant from him but we understood him - I can't say the same about this Superman.

Man of Steel did this far better than in B vs S, he should have had more depth but he felt like a person who had opinions on things. B v S Superman closed himself off completely from humanity and didn't explain anything. This is about how the audience saw him, not Lois. She didn't have any reason to know him until they crossed paths and they spent time together.

Except Snyder didn't fo a good job explaining everything he should to the audience, that's why he's cypher and what he does give us is controversial so the audience, and many people in the world from governments to the public, expect the worst because he doesn't explain himself to them. A huge derail from what he's like in traditional characterisations. B vs S does imply he is a very controversial figure in his world with the press montage about him, which would have been useful except it ends on nothing. "He just is," says Holly Hunter. Explaining nothing.

Manhattan's a godlike deity who is distant from humanity who loses his sense of humanity.

The man sacrificed himself twice in bvs. He saved the very people who hate him and only think of him as collateral. They didn't even hesitate to blow superman up with nuclear missle.then even after that he comes back and gets stabbed through the chest for these people. Lois has written article about the death. She is a live witness to everything. Ofcourse, people realised their fault.Superman's funeral by the fickle society is treated with contempt by bruce for the same reason. These people still use superman. The my need him, that's why they mourn him. He is their "god" or "savior" come to save them. Bruce on the other hand has changed. He sees a person in clark. A man. A man has his funeral with his friends and family, not some circus.

True, but because he did not does not make him a god to be worshipped, especially in movies which are supposed to be more realistic like Nolan's Batman trilogy. He tried to kill Lex the first time they meet, and he fails to protect the person trying to kill in the wheelchair because he doesn't dare try to investigative things in a court room and he appears to have lost his x-ray vision between movies. They do that as a last resort, not because they want Superman dead. I can buy the government trying to do that, and it's not like they know the guy - he stopped talking to anyone after Man of Steel and acts like a depressed, lonely god when they do see him. He's not in the press giving interviews or talking to anyone in the government like Lois is. People like Hamilton he should be friends with died in Man of Steel. That general is supposed to be J'onn which he met he has no relationship with. This doesn't answer why he's so callous about the destruction he causes, there are no scenes like Tony gets in Civil War. In the Ultimate Edition there's a witness who speaks on tv, except she's a pawn of Lex's, and the wheelchair guy is another pawn of Lex's, who is more tied to Batman then Superman and just when he gets to speak in court he blows up. Discussion dropped before it began. Lois is one person, and he's in big trouble if she's the only person in thew world speaking on his behalf in the press and worse, she's doing it alone because he's not backing her up in the press. The morning is unearned, I know what Snyder's trying to do but how he gets there it fails. He gets the funeral the Superman from the comics would get, only he's not the Superman from the comics.

Don't mistake intent with execution.

Yeah, but that is nowhere near what needed to show his progress into what he became after Snyder. That needed to be earned, too, and the DCEU just wants to move on. Something else happened in B vs S, which we'll never get into, just enjoy the new Batman Affleck's doing. He's never dropped cars on anyone, he's cool.

Dude!if you think superman was a psychopath and unempathic in man of steel. Then you didn't watch these movies. Point blank.That is all.As if canon matters in comics. The industry is built on glorified fan fiction.No, superman doesn't get replaced every few years. That's just modern nonsense.

He wasn't a psychopath in Man of Steel, but that's debatable in B vs S, that's how badly Snyder screwed up. When Superman ignores blatant heavily armed criminals in public fire fights there will be questions about his values in saving human life and he didn't start off that great by being Godzilla in Man of Steel. Please don't try to conflate anyone who has differing opinions that they don't watch the movies they're talking about. Canon does matter in comics, this isn the 40's where continuity hasn't been invented yet. DC, and Marvel, have main universes which their titles focus on - that's why they have their universe designations. Maybe, but that didn't make them any less official to DC. DC replaces their universe every few years, have you heard of the Crises? They've onto their forth one by now, you said yourself: they replaced New 52 Superman, and he replaced an early incarnation like Post-Crisis Superman replaced Pre-Crisis Superman.