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  1. #12001
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Val-zod can be clark kent.It's just a name give to a child that crash landed.I mean lor-zod is The Superman of a verse.
    Disagree - I know very little of Val-Zod, but what little I know of him paints him as being different than Clark Kent. Val-Zod seems to be his own unique character, just like Clark Kent is. So no, I doubt they're interchangeable, and I don't see one existing as some way to argue for race swapping. The opposite in fact. If Superman being black is important, use Val or Calvin instead of Clark.

  2. #12002
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Disagree - I know very little of Val-Zod, but what little I know of him paints him as being different than Clark Kent. Val-Zod seems to be his own unique character, just like Clark Kent is. So no, I doubt they're interchangeable, and I don't see one existing as some way to argue for race swapping. The opposite in fact. If Superman being black is important, use Val or Calvin instead of Clark.
    Clark kent is interchangable.As there have been many.There is a clark kent who was named by jimmy and his dad.His features are as well.He was the blue eyed white person because that was standard among the pulp heroes.It ain't anymore.It's like the strongman suit.It's basically "Here is a blank hero" look.As for being black,the only thing that would change glasses.Because there would be no hiding.No room for it.That's it.Even the guy that hides decide "eff this" and jumped in.That's the whole point of clark kent.He still kept the id because he was clinging to the idea of having a "Happy life" with family and dreaming of it.
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  3. #12003
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Clark kent is interchangable.
    No he's not. He's a very unique character. You're basically saying guys like James Bond or Indiana Jones or Robocop are all interchangeable.

    As there have been many.
    So? That happens when something lasts for decades. How many actors played James Bond? Many, and each did a unique take. Doesn't mean we can make James Bond a fat New Yorker with pimples does it?

    There is a clark kent who was named by jimmy and his dad.His features are as well.He was the blue eyed white person because that was standard among the pulp heroes.It ain't anymore.It's like the strongman suit.It's basically "Here is a blank hero" look.
    No, it isn't - that's not the "blank hero" look, that's the original superhero look. Everyone ripped off that look because it was Superman's look.

    As for being black,the only thing that would change glasses.Because there would be no hiding.No room for it.That's it.Even the guy that hides decide "eff this" and jumped in.That's the whole point of clark kent.He still kept the id because he was clinging to the idea of having a "Happy life" with family and dreaming of it.
    ...are you stating that a black Clark Kent wouldn't have the glasses or wouldn't have a secret identity? Because, that ceases to be Clark/Superman (some newer comic stories not withstanding). Or are you talking about Val-Zod, in which case you're just highlighting another huge and major way they're not the same guy and not interchangeable!


    I'm sorry, but your arguments sound like "Superman is a bland boring character I don't like or think has personality or anything interesting, so he can be switched around no problem." Which isn't an argument I can accept.

  4. #12004
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    How about we can do both (and without the attitude)?
    Fair enough. The GA argument being brought up every time can just get kind of frustrating. :/

  5. #12005
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Accidentally skipped over Stargirl - it's oddly the opposite of Superman and Lois - I think the show looks kind of cheap, but I love the writing and acting so much better on this show compared to Superman and Lois!
    The writing is the worst thing about Stargirl. I still enjoy the show, but every single character sounds so phoney and the way it talks about "small towns" is much more cartoony than Superman and Lois.

  6. #12006
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    The back and forth in these past few pages over the possibility of Clark (who’s a fictional alien who isn’t even technically human) being “race-swapped”(if you can call it that) is kind of amusing. My position on the matter is that I’m not fiercely for it, or against it. So I’m pretty much in “wait and see” mode at the moment. Some people will never warm up to the idea of alien Clark looking like a black earthling as opposed to looking like a white earthling like he’s always have, and that’s fine but I won’t get too hanged up about this until I know what exactly they’re aiming for exactly with this creative approach.

    Personally, I’m more concerned about Coates writing this than I am about the possibility of Clark getting changed as he’s primarily an author who writes about race and class and this is his first movie script , and given the fact it’s reported this will be specifically about a “black Superman” then I’m afraid the movie might be too pre-occupied with tackling racial issues to the point it forgets it’s supposed to be a fun escapist blockbuster. Maybe it can balance that, but I really have never read Coates comic book work, nor am I that interested to based on what I’ve heard. However, I will be willing to give the movie a chance since I do think the choice(if the rumor is true) of going with a Kal-El who’s inspired by the original Siegel/Shuster “Champion of Oppressed!” version of the character is quite interesting. The director they hire will determine whether I will bother with this movie in theaters or not. Hope it’s someone like Shaka King.
    Last edited by Amadeus Arkham; 05-07-2021 at 01:15 PM.
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  7. #12007
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mace11 View Post
    Rosie Perez looks clearly black and my point is that renee in the dceu is race swap but still latino.
    And I'm disagreeing.

  8. #12008
    Incredible Member Castling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post
    Bullshit! People on Twitter that are actually known for fighting for diversity on the big screen and want to see original POC characters succeed are also complaining. The article said we’re getting a Black Clark Kent/Kal-El not Calvin not Val Zod, another hand me down! That’s why people are pissed. How is that representation?

    I’m one who is always advocating for representation and diversity but even I’m fed up with the raceswaps considering WB would rather do that than build up their unique POC! It’s insulting at this point and only drives a point home that DC has no worthwhile diverse characters!
    I don't care what people on Twitter are crying about. People on Twitter cried about a black woman portraying Starfire only to find she's the breakout star of that show. People on Twitter would cry about a free lunch.
    Having a Black Superman doesn't stop DC/WB focusing on other prominent characters of color. Blue Beetle (Jaime Raiz) Static, Jessica Cruz, Naomi, John Stewart, Simon Baz, and others are on their way. Cyborg was in JL and Doom Patrol. Amanda Waller, Mr. Terrific, Vixen, John Diggle, and J'onn J'onzz have all been big players in the Arrowverse. Watchmen focused heavily on Black voices in the genre on HBO.

    I don't think WB race bending characters who were mostly default white anyway is that big a deal since those characters of color are being developed.
    The whiteness of Superman shouldn't be sacrosanct, anyway, especially when WB has made it clear they're dipping into the multiverse.

  9. #12009
    Incredible Member Castling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    And was barely in the movie, even if to a significant extent.
    Barely being in the movie didn't stop fanboys and dudebros from crying about it. Not that it mattered, because as I've said, general audiences don't care.

  10. #12010
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castling View Post
    I don't care what people on Twitter are crying about. People on Twitter cried about a black woman portraying Starfire only to find she's the breakout star of that show. People on Twitter would cry about a free lunch.
    Having a Black Superman doesn't stop DC/WB focusing on other prominent characters of color. Blue Beetle (Jaime Raiz) Static, Jessica Cruz, Naomi, John Stewart, Simon Baz, and others are on their way. Cyborg was in JL and Doom Patrol. Amanda Waller, Mr. Terrific, Vixen, John Diggle, and J'onn J'onzz have all been big players in the Arrowverse. Watchmen focused heavily on Black voices in the genre on HBO.

    I don't think WB race bending characters who were mostly default white anyway is that big a deal since those characters of color are being developed.
    The whiteness of Superman shouldn't be sacrosanct, anyway, especially when WB has made it clear they're dipping into the multiverse.
    A lot of that is TV or streaming though until we see otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Castling View Post
    Barely being in the movie didn't stop fanboys and dudebros from crying about it. Not that it mattered, because as I've said, general audiences don't care.
    Kind of seemed minor compared to all the other irrational complaints about the film (although I feel it still deserved criticism).

  11. #12011
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    The writing is the worst thing about Stargirl. I still enjoy the show, but every single character sounds so phoney and the way it talks about "small towns" is much more cartoony than Superman and Lois.
    It feels fun and entertaining comicy booky. Superman and Lois feels like a boring teen angst show meets boring family drama with a small side of Superman. I'll take cartoony over so dull that I couldn't care less. To me it's just "Oh looks, Smallville's a shithole like everywhere else, only less interesting. Joy."

    There's just nothing there to hook me.

  12. #12012
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    The general audience decides whether or not a film series succeeds or dies, so it is relevant to these discussions, IMO.
    Also lets look at merchandise.

    How many books and stuff are we going to see with a black Clark Kent versus a Val Zod Superman?

    Black Panther, Miles, Falcon and others are still getting stuff made with them. It did not end with them with a movie. So they are brining more money to Marvel.

    So that is another issue to look at.


    Why do people always bring up the "general audience" argument in debates like this.
    Because many of them are asking the same question.

    Many of them saw toxic fans go after a Black Johnny Storm and even a black storm trooper.

    They see Static, Cyborg and other POC on tv shows. Yet get told to settle for a black Clark Kent because Clark Kent has history.

    Static, Cyborg, John Stewart and others of color have history too.

    When I go to that store or library there are Static and Miles Morales trades NOT Black Clark Kent ones.

    So if history is an issue why not use those POC who have history.

    Because if this movie bombs with black Clark Kent-I don't want to hear ANYONE say "this proves no one wants a black lead super hero movie".

    Blade, Black Panther and Miles Morales debunked that.

    Maybe the general audience is saying they are TIRED of race changing. Did Last Airbender and all those other movies not prove that?

  13. #12013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    And I'm disagreeing.
    Rosie Perez is a light skin black latino woman.
    Renee in the dceu is a light skin black latino woman.

    Renee a is brown race latino woman.

    Rosie Perez is not brown looking,she is black looking.
    Renee in comics and the gotham show and cartoons does not look racially like the rosie,so i disagree with you.
    Last edited by mace11; 05-07-2021 at 10:13 PM.

  14. #12014
    Mighty Member Samm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castling View Post
    I don't care what people on Twitter are crying about. People on Twitter cried about a black woman portraying Starfire only to find she's the breakout star of that show. People on Twitter would cry about a free lunch.
    Having a Black Superman doesn't stop DC/WB focusing on other prominent characters of color. Blue Beetle (Jaime Raiz) Static, Jessica Cruz, Naomi, John Stewart, Simon Baz, and others are on their way. Cyborg was in JL and Doom Patrol. Amanda Waller, Mr. Terrific, Vixen, John Diggle, and J'onn J'onzz have all been big players in the Arrowverse. Watchmen focused heavily on Black voices in the genre on HBO.

    I don't think WB race bending characters who were mostly default white anyway is that big a deal since those characters of color are being developed.
    The whiteness of Superman shouldn't be sacrosanct, anyway, especially when WB has made it clear they're dipping into the multiverse.
    Most of what you listed are streaming shows. Static and Blue Beetle haven’t happened yet so they could very well be canceled too. I’m looking at things from an overall perspective. Movies, Comics, Games, TV, Merchandise... what good does a race swap for a film or tv show do if the character will still White everywhere else? Nothing! Black Canary, Hawkman, Catwoman, Gordon, Cyclone...etc are all still White everywhere else but one movie! Did nothing to improve diversity at DC, instead it did the opposite! Shows people that DC’s actual characters of color aren’t good enough to use in movies so we’re going to just cast POC as White characters. So insulting!

    Why can’t WB/DC do for Val Zod or Calvin Ellis what Sony/Marvel has done for Miles Morales? Why is that so hard? Who even thought making Clark Black was a good idea? Especially over using established Black Superman characters! I’m not saying they can’t do it, I’m saying why the hell would they? This entire thread is filled with POC DC fans saying why they hate raceswaps and still you’re arguing for them? Why?

  15. #12015
    Incredible Member Castling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Most of what you listed are streaming shows. Static and Blue Beetle haven’t happened yet so they could very well be canceled too. I’m looking at things from an overall perspective. Movies, Comics, Games, TV, Merchandise... what good does a race swap for a film or tv show do if the character will still White everywhere else? Nothing! Black Canary, Hawkman, Catwoman, Gordon, Cyclone...etc are all still White everywhere else but one movie! Did nothing to improve diversity at DC, instead it did the opposite! Shows people that DC’s actual characters of color aren’t good enough to use in movies so we’re going to just cast POC as White characters. So insulting!

    Why can’t WB/DC do for Val Zod or Calvin Ellis what Sony/Marvel has done for Miles Morales? Why is that so hard? Who even thought making Clark Black was a good idea? Especially over using established Black Superman characters! I’m not saying they can’t do it, I’m saying why the hell would they? This entire thread is filled with POC DC fans saying why they hate raceswaps and still you’re arguing for them? Why?
    Who says they're not using Calvin Ellis?
    The trades I read said they're using Kal-El. Both Clark Kent and Calvin Ellis use that name.
    We'll just have to wait and see.

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