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  1. #12121
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Also I think the best comparison to Zeus being Diana’s father would be if Martha Wayne was revealed to have cheated and Bruce wasn’t Thomas’ son.

    And then if you want to rub more salt into that you could reveal she was having an affair with the man who killed them in the ally (I suddenly forgot his name). So Bruce was actually his kid all along.
    Still wouldn't change anything or be damaging, so long as Bruce considers Thomas, the man who raised him, as his father and was still traumatized seeing his parents murdered in front of him. I mean we've seen his parents' murder become a mob hit, we've seen the man who would become the Joker his parents' killer, we've seen the Joker inspire the man who killed his parents. It hasn't affected anything at all really, the important, relevant bits have remained. Heck, we've seen an origin for him that had every one of his villains come into power while he was still a teenager, and that didn't damage him. Not every detail of his origin is important. The defining feature of his origin isn't all the details surrounding the murder of his parents, the defining feature is him seeing his loving parents killed. The defining origin feature for Wonder Woman isn't being shaped from clay, it's being shaped by an all female civilization.

  2. #12122
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    You also gotta "love" how it never occurred to them to just give her a mortal father if she needs to have one. Why not a rebooted Prince Theno from the Silver Age? That way he can just bow out of the narrative (like all the superhero moms) while all the focus is on Hippolyta and she can get her power from someone else
    I hate when writers downplay Martha Kent and Martha Wayne to prop up the importance of the fathers.

  3. #12123
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    From The Flash's set (Keaton's Wayne Manor):


  4. #12124
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Margot Robbie on pestering WB to introduce Poison Ivy in the movies: https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/mar...n-in-the-dceu/

    I'm honestly surprised Robbie even has to pester WB - I thought a Gotham City Sirens was a lock all but officially confirmed, and you can't do that without Poison Ivy.

  5. #12125
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Still wouldn't change anything or be damaging, so long as Bruce considers Thomas, the man who raised him, as his father and was still traumatized seeing his parents murdered in front of him. I mean we've seen his parents' murder become a mob hit, we've seen the man who would become the Joker his parents' killer, we've seen the Joker inspire the man who killed his parents. It hasn't affected anything at all really, the important, relevant bits have remained. Heck, we've seen an origin for him that had every one of his villains come into power while he was still a teenager, and that didn't damage him. Not every detail of his origin is important. The defining feature of his origin isn't all the details surrounding the murder of his parents, the defining feature is him seeing his loving parents killed. The defining origin feature for Wonder Woman isn't being shaped from clay, it's being shaped by an all female civilization.
    Well, that's why I was saying it was the more accurate comparison.

    Plus with the Daddy Zeus origin you get stories like, "Diana, Greek Gods are selfish creatures who abuse their power. And you are of their blood. So if you're not careful you're gonna become an abusive psycho like your family." It doesn't happen too often, but it's freakin' annoying when they make that a plot point. That Diana can't go too far or she'll become like her "kin".

    Then you could apply the same problem to Batman if he was a bastard child who's father was a criminal and they choose to write stories like, "Your birth father was criminally insane, Bruce. Maybe that's why you're so paranoids all the time. Being crazy is in your blood Bruce." It doesn't change who Bruce is, but it's annoying...

  6. #12126
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Well, that's why I was saying it was the more accurate comparison.

    Plus with the Daddy Zeus origin you get stories like, "Diana, Greek Gods are selfish creatures who abuse their power. And you are of their blood. So if you're not careful you're gonna become an abusive psycho like your family." It doesn't happen too often, but it's freakin' annoying when they make that a plot point. That Diana can't go too far or she'll become like her "kin".

    Then you could apply the same problem to Batman if he was a bastard child who's father was a criminal and they choose to write stories like, "Your birth father was criminally insane, Bruce. Maybe that's why you're so paranoids all the time. Being crazy is in your blood Bruce." It doesn't change who Bruce is, but it's annoying...
    That's not on the origins though - that's just writers falling into bad, bad, dumb, really dumb bad writing tropes. Writers should straight up be told beforehand that's bad writing and not to do that.

  7. #12127
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I'm honestly surprised Robbie even has to pester WB - I thought a Gotham City Sirens was a lock all but officially confirmed, and you can't do that without Poison Ivy.
    Maybe if BoP had done better.

  8. #12128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I'm honestly surprised Robbie even has to pester WB - I thought a Gotham City Sirens was a lock all but officially confirmed, and you can't do that without Poison Ivy.
    Probably depends on the plot and budget.

    Although if anything could sniff a profit or get as close to break even as you can get-Gotham Sirens would be it.

  9. #12129
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    No - if Krypton survived it would change the important parts - alien from the stars raised by a kindly earthling couple. I understand that there's meanings to these origin stories - I just think some of you are pointing at the wrong part of these origins and saying "That! That's where the meaning lies!" while I'm staring at other parts and going "Guys, I think the meaning's actually over here with this aspect of the origin."
    Krypton surviving wouldn't change anything about how he was raised. Heck, you could even make it so that Jor-el and Lana really thought the planet was gonna explode and after sending kal el away they were executed. Wouldn't a change a thing. about his story.

    And I'm saying that it's not one or the other for Diana, both those things matter. The fact that her mother literally scuplted her and chose what she wanted her daughter to be down to her appearance is a pretty big deal and defines their relationship in a big way. I mean, talk about control freak right?

    I also very much think that simbolism matters, specially with a character that had so much thought put into her like Wonder Woman. The Golden Age Wonder Woman had every single detail of her world thought out in detail as to what their purpose and meaning should be. You know how Grant Morrison wrote Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth and showed what each villain represented to Bruce Wayne? Well Marston already knew what each villain represented to Wonder Woman (and he created dozens and dozens of them) along with the meaning for her clothes and her tools, and her supporting characters, and the worlds she visited.

    The stories about Batman and Superman were all about entertainment, but Wonder Woman was about really changing the minds of young girls and boys through a very important message that kept getting reinforced. Bruce Wayne didn't even have an origin story when he was created. They came up with the parents dying months after he debuted. So changing a part of Wonder Woman's origin is very different from changing those other two characters.

  10. #12130
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Maybe if BoP had done better.
    I’m sure they were planning a Sirens spinoff from Birds at one point, but not anymore. Why not put her on the SS? Sounds like they plan to kill off Affleck so the rest of the Gotham Rogues will be free to use.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  11. #12131
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Krypton surviving wouldn't change anything about how he was raised. Heck, you could even make it so that Jor-el and Lana really thought the planet was gonna explode and after sending kal el away they were executed. Wouldn't a change a thing. about his story.
    Agreed - I meant to type would'nt but my fingers skipped over the 'nt part.

    And I'm saying that it's not one or the other for Diana, both those things matter. The fact that her mother literally scuplted her and chose what she wanted her daughter to be down to her appearance is a pretty big deal and defines their relationship in a big way. I mean, talk about control freak right?
    When you put it like that, it puts a very modern "test tube/designer baby" spin on it I'm not sure we'd want to explore...

    I also very much think that simbolism matters, specially with a character that had so much thought put into her like Wonder Woman. The Golden Age Wonder Woman had every single detail of her world thought out in detail as to what their purpose and meaning should be. You know how Grant Morrison wrote Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth and showed what each villain represented to Bruce Wayne? Well Marston already knew what each villain represented to Wonder Woman (and he created dozens and dozens of them) along with the meaning for her clothes and her tools, and her supporting characters, and the worlds she visited.

    The stories about Batman and Superman were all about entertainment, but Wonder Woman was about really changing the minds of young girls and boys through a very important message that kept getting reinforced. Bruce Wayne didn't even have an origin story when he was created. They came up with the parents dying months after he debuted. So changing a part of Wonder Woman's origin is very different from changing those other two characters.
    Like I said, for some reason as time goes by I find myself caring less and less about symbolism and it's so called importance. Like, I get how it's important to other people, so I can respect that - but to me symbolism means nothing these days, plot and characterization is everything.

  12. #12132
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I’m sure they were planning a Sirens spinoff from Birds at one point, but not anymore. Why not put her on the SS? Sounds like they plan to kill off Affleck so the rest of the Gotham Rogues will be free to use.
    I'd rather not see more Gotham Rogues in SS to be honest with you. Harley's kind of enough on that front, I like that the team is mostly comprised of lesser known villains. I don't know where else Poison Ivy would show up though...

    They should just bite the bullet, learn whatever lessons they can from wherever BOP went wrong with audiences, and greenlight Gotham City Sirens.

  13. #12133
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    When you put it like that, it puts a very modern "test tube/designer baby" spin on it I'm not sure we'd want to explore...
    I think that would be fascinating to explore. And it's the type of story that ends with "I honestly don't care about what they meant for me to be, because I love what I am and have nothing to be insecure about".

  14. #12134
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I'm honestly surprised Robbie even has to pester WB - I thought a Gotham City Sirens was a lock all but officially confirmed, and you can't do that without Poison Ivy.
    There was talk last month that James Gunn and Robbie had discussions about working on another DC project together. WB absolutely loves Gunn so if he was interested in Gotham City Sirens or even something like the Harley Quinn show, I’m sure they would be on board.

  15. #12135
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Blessings from the Gods is not that much more complicated than being a demigod, so how is it streamlined? I think the mainstream audience can grasp it just fine, especially as they can already grasp Superman getting his power from the sun or superheroes in general having all sorts of power sources.
    I mean, I personally have never been a huge fan of the 'endowment' explanation of her powers and it does require a bit more explanation (why did they choose WW? why can't they resolve these issues themselves?), not to mention you have to have them be a presence. The demigod origin allows you to get away with referencing the gods, but still not having them be characters in the story.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

    "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few necks." - Wonder Woman, probably

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