DC/WB Films/Worlds (No Spoilers)

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't think so - because I never said anything about the mainstream's interest, only my interests. But I don't think the mainstream knows or cares who Nightwing is. I think comic fans over inflate how big Dick really is just because they like him.

And yeah, probably. But it'd be a more satisfying 5 seconds for me than a two hour Nightwing movie would be. And who knows, maybe it could take inspiration from the game where the Suicide Squad kills Superman.

By saying they don't know nor care who Nightwing is, you are implying there is no interest among the mainstream and that it's at the same level as yours. You're deflating Dick because you don't like him, coming from the opposite end of the extreme fans.

The truth as always is probably somewhere in the middle: all fans exaggerate how successful their favorite would be, but really of DC's characters the mainstream only pays attention to Batman, the Joker, Superman and only recently Wonder Woman to a lesser extent. But Nightwing has a starring role in Titans and Young Justice which increased his profile, and those who keep track of such things better than I do say merchandise with his logo moves a lot of units. So there probably is a little more awareness and interest among the mainstream than a lot of other DC characters or Bat-family members.

[SiegePerilous02]

His saving grace is that they’ve stopped pretending he’s anything other than a bastard as opposed to Harley being a “sweet cinnamon roll who didn’t do anything wrong uwu”

Yeah, I feel like Deathstroke still ends up getting lumped onto the villain side more than Harley who has to end up joining the heroes because she's so misunderstood, funny, and not at all accountable for her actions .

It's like he and Harley switched places. They finally had the good sense to not put Slade in the "misunderstood anti-hero" box and treat him as the bastard he is.

That issue where he and Gar go to the diner and Slade is all "I never bore you Titans any personal ill will, the underage girl I was diddling was the real bad one and you should only hate her, let's be allies." It was some of the most baffling character writing I think I've ever seen in a mainstream book (at least from that period), and I can't believe it was published.

[I'm a Fish]

It's like he and Harley switched places. They finally had the good sense to not put Slade in the "misunderstood anti-hero" box and treat him as the bastard he is.

That issue where he and Gar go to the diner and Slade is all "I never bore you Titans any personal ill will, the underage girl I was diddling was the real bad one and you should only hate her, let's be allies." It was some of the most baffling character writing I think I've ever seen in a mainstream book (at least from that period), and I can't believe it was published.

They went that far to try and redeem Slade? Ew, wtf…

[SiegePerilous02]

They went that far to try and redeem Slade? Ew, wtf…

Yep. Wolfman loved the character a bit too much.

[Vakanai]

By saying they don't know nor care who Nightwing is, you are implying there is no interest among the mainstream and that it's at the same level as yours. You're deflating Dick because you don't like him, coming from the opposite end of the extreme fans.

Not really - they don't care who he is because most of them don't know he exists. They know Robin, not Nightwing. I think other fans who like him inflate him, thinking he's more well known than he is.

The truth as always is probably somewhere in the middle: all fans exaggerate how successful their favorite would be, but really of DC's characters the mainstream only pays attention to Batman, the Joker, Superman and only recently Wonder Woman to a lesser extent. But Nightwing has a starring role in Titans and Young Justice which increased his profile, and those who keep track of such things better than I do say merchandise with his logo moves a lot of units. So there probably is a little more awareness and interest among the mainstream than a lot of other DC characters or Bat-family members.

Exactly - he has a starring role in only two shows, one a niche streaming show and one a cartoon. So only people who have seen those shows (which is less than a movie's audience) will know him and therefore might care. Also keep in mind some of those fans are already comic book fans who'd care to begin with, which shrinks the circle a bit.

[I'm a Fish]

Nightwing is also in a lot of games isn’t he?

He’s at least going to be a playable character in an upcoming Bat game.

[SiegePerilous02]

Not really - they don't care who he is because most of them don't know he exists. They know Robin, not Nightwing. I think other fans who like him inflate him, thinking he's more well known than he is.

They are literally the same person, so they by default already know he exists. All they have to do is market it as Robin as an adult and independent of Batman and people will instantly get what it's about.

Exactly - he has a starring role in only two shows, one a niche streaming show and one a cartoon. So only people who have seen those shows (which is less than a movie's audience) will know him and therefore might care. Also keep in mind some of those fans are already comic book fans who'd care to begin with, which shrinks the circle a bit.

Even discounting the niche shows, I'm still not seeing why this makes him any different than any DC character who isn't Batman, the Joker, Superman or Wonder Woman. Even Harley is evidently not as big of a box office draw as the studio thought. Not having pre-existing knowledge of a character (which isn't really true since he's Robin) doesn't prevent the audience from coming on board and starting to care if a movie is good when they see it. The entire MCU proves this. Deathstroke isn't a household name that the average person without at least a casual foot in nerd culture would know or care about either.

[Vordan]

Nightwing is in the Arkham and Injustice games, the insanely popular Under The Red Hood animated movie, the DCAU, the Young Justice cartoon, the Titans show which is one of the most highly streamed shows period and he’s one of the core four of the upcoming Gotham Knight game. People know who he is, he’s likely the second or third most popular Batfamily character, and the most popular DC character not in the League.

[Frontier]

Nightwing is in the Arkham and Injustice games, the insanely popular Under The Red Hood animated movie, the DCAU, the Young Justice cartoon, the Titans show which is one of the most highly streamed shows period and he’s one of the core four of the upcoming Gotham Knight game. People know who he is, he’s likely the second or third most popular Batfamily character, and the most popular DC character not in the League.

Yeah, I think of the entire Batfamily recognition goes:

1. Batman

2. Robin (in general)

3. Batgirl

4. Nightwing

5. Red Hood

6. Batwoman

[SiegePerilous02]

I'd say Nightwing and Red Hood are very close, and definitely behind Batman, Robin and Batgirl. But the knowledge that there is more than one Robin is still not as widespread among the mainstream, and Robin became an iconic household name due to the sheer volume of other media Dick starred in under the name before the others even began making the jump. So people definitely know who he is on some level.

[Vakanai]

They are literally the same person, so they by default already know he exists. All they have to do is market it as Robin as an adult and independent of Batman and people will instantly get what it's about.

They don't know he's literally the same person, and might get confused by it.

Even discounting the niche shows, I'm still not seeing why this makes him any different than any DC character who isn't Batman, the Joker, Superman or Wonder Woman. Even Harley is evidently not as big of a box office draw as the studio thought. Not having pre-existing knowledge of a character (which isn't really true since he's Robin) doesn't prevent the audience from coming on board and starting to care if a movie is good when they see it. The entire MCU proves this. Deathstroke isn't a household name that the average person without at least a casual foot in nerd culture would know or care about either.

I think you've missed my point entirely. The bolded has been what I've been saying the whole time - not that he's worse off then any other character outside the the trinity + Joker, that he's entirely 100% as bad off as everyone else who isn't the Joker, Superman or Wonder Woman. He's about equal draw as Polka Dot Man on The Suicide Squad. You don't sell Nightwing, you sell a superhero film. People, most people, would go see it cause superhero blockbuster movie, not cause of him. He's no different than Black Canary, Zatanna, Blue Beetle, Hourman - he could get a movie like they're getting movies, but his cache is same level.

[SiegePerilous02]

They don't know he's literally the same person, and might get confused by it.

You're severely underestimating the intelligence of the audience if you think it would be that confusing. If the audience can handle Into the Spider-Verse, a Nightwing movie that would of course have the Robin connection be heavily marketed would be very easy for them to grasp.

You do not get any Nightwing content without the iconic Robin factor being present to help sell it. It's common sense. The two identities are inseparable from each other.

I think you've missed my point entirely. The bolded has been what I've been saying the whole time - not that he's worse off then any other character outside the the trinity + Joker, that he's entirely 100% as bad off as everyone else who isn't the Joker, Superman or Wonder Woman. He's about equal draw as Polka Dot Man on The Suicide Squad. You don't sell Nightwing, you sell a superhero film. People, most people, would go see it cause superhero blockbuster movie, not cause of him. He's no different than Black Canary, Zatanna, Blue Beetle, Hourman - he could get a movie like they're getting movies, but his cache is same level.

His status as THE Robin and the Batman connection means he has more cache than any one else you listed. There's a middle ground here. He's below the Trinity and the Joker like everyone else, but he's above a lot of other characters. An announcement for a Nightwing film that made everyone know that he used to be Robin (or even an announcement for Robin showing up in the Matt Reeves films) would immediately get more buzz than Black Canary or Zatanna.

Polka Dot Man and Hourman? I know don't you don't like the character, but let's not use hyperbole.

[Vakanai]

You're severely underestimating the intelligence of the audience if you think it would be that confusing. If the audience can handle Into the Spider-Verse, a Nightwing movie that would of course have the Robin connection be heavily marketed would be very easy for them to grasp.

For the first part, you might be overestimating the intelligence of the audience. There were people who were confused that Batman Begins wasn't a sequel to Batman & Robin. As for the second sentence, Spider-Verse was a critical darling - but it also didn't make that much. Enough to warrant a sequel easily sure, but it wasn't some MCU level blockbuster.

You do not get any Nightwing content without the iconic Robin factor being present to help sell it. It's common sense. The two identities are inseparable from each other.

You're assuming WB realizes that. There is no reason at all to assume they'd be smart enough to make sure that's obvious in the advertising for a Nightwing movie. Hollywood execs make mistakes like that all the time. Plus you're assuming people would be willing to show up in droves for basically Robin without Batman. I'm more skeptical on that. It makes far more sense to me to introduce Nightwing in a Batman movie then split him off. Just chucking him out there without Batman, color me skeptical.

His status as THE Robin and the Batman connection means he has more cache than any one else you listed. There's a middle ground here. He's below the Trinity and the Joker like everyone else, but he's above a lot of other characters. An announcement for a Nightwing film that made everyone know that he used to be Robin (or even an announcement for Robin showing up in the Matt Reeves films) would immediately get more buzz than Black Canary or Zatanna.

Maybe, if the trailers make sure to play up the Batman angle and explain he was Robin, and if the audience has an interest at all in Robin without Batman, which is a very wild guess assumption to make. But you're right, there is a middle ground - Harley Quinn kind of represents where the middle ground is, and BoP still didn't do hot (and I'd argue she's higher up in popularity than Nightwing to general audiences - not that you'd know that from the way this forum swings).

(And don't even joke about Robin getting in the Reeves' films, from what I've seen that'd be a big mistake.)

Polka Dot Man and Hourman? I know don't you don't like the character, but let's not use hyperbole.

It's not hyperbole - you're assuming that how things work in comics world is apples to apples with the real world's awareness of these characters - it is not. Hourman has just as strong or weak a chance of his movie doing well as Blue Beetle or Black Canary. It's a toss up, his name has no cache to the audience, but that's true for a lot of characters you as a fan think would be better options. And between the two, in that middle ground between Hourman and Batman, I'd peg Nightwing's odds closer to Hourman's. Which isn't saying he's destined for failure if he (Dick) does get a movie, just that it's not the sure thing you may believe it is.

[SiegePerilous02]

For the first part, you might be overestimating the intelligence of the audience. There were people who were confused that Batman Begins wasn't a sequel to Batman & Robin. As for the second sentence, Spider-Verse was a critical darling - but it also didn't make that much. Enough to warrant a sequel easily sure, but it wasn't some MCU level blockbuster.

The mistake here is comparing when Batman Begins came out to now. That was before the big superhero genre boom, general audiences are much more in tune with superhero reboots. Now that we are post Bale and Affleck and onto Pattinson, they very well know all these aren't sequels to each other.

You're assuming WB realizes that. There is no reason at all to assume they'd be smart enough to make sure that's obvious in the advertising for a Nightwing movie. Hollywood execs make mistakes like that all the time. Plus you're assuming people would be willing to show up in droves for basically Robin without Batman. I'm more skeptical on that. It makes far more sense to me to introduce Nightwing in a Batman movie then split him off. Just chucking him out there without Batman, color me skeptical.

Yeah we can't trust that Hollywood to make the smart decisions, but that doesn't change the fact that there are smart avenues they can possibly take. Although yes, ideally spinning off all Bat-family members from Batman would be ideal, but it's not impossible to do try it without him. They are attempting it with Batgirl and while she's a big icon, she's less iconic and probably less popular than Robin.

Maybe, if the trailers make sure to play up the Batman angle and explain he was Robin, and if the audience has an interest at all in Robin without Batman, which is a very wild guess assumption to make. But you're right, there is a middle ground - Harley Quinn kind of represents where the middle ground is, and BoP still didn't do hot (and I'd argue she's higher up in popularity than Nightwing to general audiences - not that you'd know that from the way this forum swings).

Maybe we don't know for a certainty that Harley is that big of a hit with general audiences and she and Nightwing may be on more equal footing with them than we realize. Basically, that means this is all hard to predict.

(And don't even joke about Robin getting in the Reeves' films, from what I've seen that'd be a big mistake.)

It's not a joke. We don't know how the films will evolve or what Reeves' plans are, and how he'd execute Robin if he did include him (it should not be forced on him if he doesn't want it, but we don't know what he wants). But you've already had the Robin-less Batman you prefer in the last two cinematic takes. Time for the Batman & Robin fans to possibly have their turn again. It's not fair to automatically dismiss the big mainstream avenues he could appear in (both this and the Caped Crusader cartoon) when there is a wealth of solo Batman material that already exists.

It's not hyperbole - you're assuming that how things work in comics world is apples to apples with the real world's awareness of these characters - it is not. Hourman has just as strong or weak a chance of his movie doing well as Blue Beetle or Black Canary. It's a toss up, his name has no cache to the audience, but that's true for a lot of characters you as a fan think would be better options. And between the two, in that middle ground between Hourman and Batman, I'd peg Nightwing's odds closer to Hourman's. Which isn't saying he's destined for failure if he (Dick) does get a movie, just that it's not the sure thing you may believe it is.

No I'm not assuming that, and I never said a Nightwing or Robin movie would be a 100% sure thing because none of these are sure things. But you saying he is on the same level as D-listers like Hourman or Polka Dot Man when he's shown up in the DCAU, both the Arkham and Injustice games, a starring role in Titans and Young Justice and will be in the Gotham Knights game is transparent hyperbole. He's already had plenty of exposure, he's still definitely in the middle ground but his cache is nowhere near their level.

[RobinGA]

I think our focus on Nightwing, shouldn't exclude just how beloved a
character, how well known Dick Grayson is as a character. People have
been following his exploits for 80 years. They might not know Nightwing,
but they know Grayson, the same way they do Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne,
Diana Prince.

As for how skillfully WB could produce a decent Nightwing movie that is
another question. I see no reason why it couldn't be tremendous. But this
is the WB we are talking about. They have been so scared of being left
behind by Marvel, that they have produced a series of dreadful films. How
much trust can we really have that they will produce a film that makes
people think, that returns the true values that DC Comics promotes? I am
highly dubious.

I imagine it would be a film very Snyder-esque. My expectations are also not that
high either for the coming Batman film. Now having said that, I am willing to
raise my hand if wrong. But how many times have we been let down by these
movies? Shouldn't we be by this point a little realistic about what we are going to see.
The track record is pretty clear.