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  1. #466
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    But perhaps MJ fans will ignore this the way Gwen fans ignore "Sins Past".
    Lol breathe please. It's just an AU version. And before someone says that this will be more important than comics, *minor MJ in Into the Spider-Verse spoiler*

    spoilers:
    ...apparently at the start of the film, there is a moving scene where Ultimate Mary Jane delivers a eulogy at her husband Peter's funeral. So obviously they want just one MJ to split up with her husband. And that is probably to focus on how much of a failure Jake Johnson's Peter Parker is. Not a condemnation of MJ as a character, either on a whole or even just that one AU version.

    Also, divorcing is not a scummy, immoral thing to do like you are making it out to be so relax.
    end of spoilers
    Last edited by Confuzzled; 10-19-2018 at 11:37 PM.

  2. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Lol breathe please. It's just an AU version
    This whole movie's focus is on AU versions, they all matter, what's your point?

    And before someone says that this will be more important than comics, *minor MJ in Into the Spider-Verse spoiler*

    spoilers:
    ...apparently at the start of the film, there is a moving scene where Ultimate Mary Jane delivers a eulogy at her husband Peter's funeral. So obviously they want just one MJ to split up with her husband. And that is probably to focus on how much of a failure Jake Johnson's Peter Parker is. Not a condemnation of MJ as a character, either on a whole or even just that one AU version.

    Also, divorcing is not a scummy, immoral thing to do like you are making it out to be so relax.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    Can we please stop calling her "Ultimate MJ" please? This isn't the Ultimate Universe, this is a different reality with a completely different Miles.

    And, sorry, divorce is a pretty scummy thing in the context of who MJ's character is and who Peter is. I know people opposed to OMD have always cried out for this scenario but it doesn't make it right. Marriage is one of the ultimate responsibilities in life, and Peter and MJ would have pushed to make it work. They'd stumble a bit, but as JMS' run proved, when the two were teetering on the very edge of losing their connection, they rekindled it.

    I don't care if this is to tell the story of a Peter who's made all the wrong choices just to make Miles and his version of Peter look better...I'm sick of Peter being treated as a hard luck case who can't make it work with Mary Jane. Simple as that. Enough is enough.
    end of spoilers
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 10-20-2018 at 01:57 AM.

  3. #468
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starrius View Post
    Maybe Quesada was okay with them as a family in the Spider-Girl comics because it's not main universe stuff.
    As long as it's not main universe, Peter can be married and have children.
    That is actually what I suspect. I can relate to liking huge status quo changes that can play out in ways that don't affect the "real" version. Case in point, I thought it was cool in the Star Trek novels that continue the 24th century era beyond the scope of the TV shows and movies actually destroyed and replaced Deep Space 9, given how that allowed the universe to change in ways that couldn't be done onscreen, but still being happy that canonically the old DS9 space station was "still" alive and well.

    If Quesada doesn't think that marriage (and kids) is a story that works for the 616 ASM comics but does work as stories told outside that framework, fair enough. I completely disagree with him, but he didn't do anything wrong and it is a fair point to consider how far a character can be evolved before they go past the "evergreen" stage that the franchise needs.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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  4. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    If Quesada doesn't think that marriage (and kids) is a story that works for the 616 ASM comics but does work as stories told outside that framework, fair enough. I completely disagree with him, but he didn't do anything wrong and it is a fair point to consider how far a character can be evolved before they go past the "evergreen" stage that the franchise needs.
    Quesada may not be the complete monster he's painted as when it comes to Spider-Man, but I would argue he has made some critical errors. OMIT being one of them. In an attempt to appease people, he wound up pleasing nobody there...but then, is there ever a right way to deconstruct an iconic relationship like Peter and MJ? I might be proven wrong with the Spider-Verse movie of course.

    Also it should be worth mentioning Marvel actually desired Renew Your Vows to be a sales success based off the reception of the mini-series by Slott, and were scrambling for gimmicks when the sales were lower than anticipated for the book. They wanted a marriage-oriented book to succeed but made critical errors not waiting for it to build an audience and then switched the focus to another teen Spider with issues scenario, they also wanted instant gratification and that can be difficult when you've spent many years spinning the relationship in a negative light to impressionable new readers.

    Quesada also didn't vouch to keep MC2 Peter alive in Spider-Verse....and it's likely RYV Peter will probably meet his maker in Spidergeddon...while Tom D came to MC2 Peter's rescue by implying his reality wasn't affected and that it was another double...that's mainly an easter egg for long-term readers who understand these things, but I doubt anyone will be going to bat for RYV Peter as Conway is gone and Slott likes to break toys. Quesada seems to be fine with a family man Peter...so long as his story has a finite, and tragic, conclusion
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 10-21-2018 at 02:30 AM.

  5. #470
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Quesada may not be the complete monster he's painted as when it comes to Spider-Man, but I would argue he has made some critical errors. OMIT being one of them. In an attempt to appease people, he wound up pleasing nobody there...but then, is there ever a right way to deconstruct an iconic relationship like Peter and MJ? I might be proven wrong with the Spider-Verse movie of course.

    Also it should be worth mentioning Marvel actually desired Renew Your Vows to be a sales success based off the reception of the mini-series by Slott, and were scrambling for gimmicks when the sales were lower than anticipated for the book. They wanted a marriage-oriented book to succeed but made critical errors not waiting for it to build an audience and then switched the focus to another teen Spider with issues scenario, they also wanted instant gratification and that can be difficult when you've spent many years spinning the relationship in a negative light to impressionable new readers.

    Quesada also didn't vouch to keep MC2 Peter alive in Spider-Verse....and it's likely RYV Peter will probably meet his maker in Spidergeddon...while Tom D came to MC2 Peter's rescue by implying his reality wasn't affected and that it was another double...that's mainly an easter egg for long-term readers who understand these things, but I doubt anyone will be going to bat for RYV Peter as Conway is gone and Slott likes to break toys. Quesada seems to be fine with a family man Peter...so long as his story has a finite, and tragic, conclusion
    Are you sure Quesada was involved one way or the other with the fate of MC2 Peter Parker, or with whatever happens to RYV Peter Parker?
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  6. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Are you sure Quesada was involved one way or the other with the fate of MC2 Peter Parker, or with whatever happens to RYV Peter Parker?
    I didn't say he was necessarily involved, just that he's compliant in it

  7. #472
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Remember when Quesada talked up Freedom Ring as an LGBT character at Marvel, and said character literally died in the story he was introduced in?

  8. #473
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    This whole movie's focus is on AU versions, they all matter, what's your point?



    spoilers:
    Can we please stop calling her "Ultimate MJ" please? This isn't the Ultimate Universe, this is a different reality with a completely different Miles.

    And, sorry, divorce is a pretty scummy thing in the context of who MJ's character is and who Peter is. I know people opposed to OMD have always cried out for this scenario but it doesn't make it right. Marriage is one of the ultimate responsibilities in life, and Peter and MJ would have pushed to make it work. They'd stumble a bit, but as JMS' run proved, when the two were teetering on the very edge of losing their connection, they rekindled it.

    I don't care if this is to tell the story of a Peter who's made all the wrong choices just to make Miles and his version of Peter look better...I'm sick of Peter being treated as a hard luck case who can't make it work with Mary Jane. Simple as that. Enough is enough.
    end of spoilers
    By your own logic, if "all the AU versions matter", then why are the Miles's versions of Peter/MJ matter less than the other ones? Or conversely, why do the others matter more than them? The literal point of AU versions is to do things with them that cannot be done with main universe versions.

  9. #474
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Yeah this seems like they're doing the standard alt-u thing where the characters lived drastically different lives. So it makes sense that bad things happened to at least some of them.

    Also I like Sarah Stacy.
    Last edited by marhawkman; 10-21-2018 at 09:52 AM.

  10. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Yeah this seems like they're doing the standard alt-u thing where the characters lived drastically different lives. So it makes sense that bad things happened to at least some of them.

    Also I like Sarah Stacy.
    I also liked her. Just wish her origins was that she was Peter and Gwen child as originally intended (which means no kissing as it makes that one cover feel strange). If not that then a far better idea that was written and executed better and respectfully of past characterizations and legacy of even minor to major characters.
    I would taken that Gwen was mind controlled and raped (Osborn is a monster and I can see him wanting to stake 'a claim' on the woman Peter loves simply as Peter loves her thus Osborn must steal for himself in his madness).
    A 'first clone' of Gwen that Osborn wanted to make to kidnap Peter's Gwen Stacy and when getting close to him and his guard down poison him even if she doesn't want to. To see if this Gwen will do what he says he forces her to follow a order she doesn't want: have sex with him. Unable to stop herself a slave to his desires as she was made to be she does so with tears down her face. The clone gets pregnant and since 'Gwen Stacy' isnt pregnant the plans to kidnap Gwen Stacy and replace with a clone Gwen spy and hidden Manchurian Agent for Osborn is scraped. She is taken to a hidden lab where she gives birth.
    Gwen was experimented on and taken DNA unknown to her that produced in a lab Sarah and her brother in a experiment of how offspring of heroes and villains might produce funded by Osborn and the Jackal.

    Either way it's one of those cases like how the original Clone Saga had a wonderful character of Ben Reilly come to be but the Clone Saga itself not highly looked favorably on due to other aspects (like the one that mostly bothered me was how Peter became a monster/villain during that time by how he acted and responded). Sarah was fine but the story and other elements wreaked havoc that made it a horrible story arc.

  11. #476
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Quesada may not be the complete monster he's painted as when it comes to Spider-Man, but I would argue he has made some critical errors. OMIT being one of them. In an attempt to appease people, he wound up pleasing nobody there...but then, is there ever a right way to deconstruct an iconic relationship like Peter and MJ? I might be proven wrong with the Spider-Verse movie of course.
    Mistakes can be made with the best of intentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Also it should be worth mentioning Marvel actually desired Renew Your Vows to be a sales success based off the reception of the mini-series by Slott, and were scrambling for gimmicks when the sales were lower than anticipated for the book. They wanted a marriage-oriented book to succeed but made critical errors not waiting for it to build an audience and then switched the focus to another teen Spider with issues scenario, they also wanted instant gratification and that can be difficult when you've spent many years spinning the relationship in a negative light to impressionable new readers.
    I don't know if there's one specific smoking gun to why the series didn't catch on like other offshoot series have (although even the classic Spider-Girl series was pretty much chronically right on the red line of cancelation, if I recall correctly). I do think that the AU status and lack of marketing were strikes against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Quesada also didn't vouch to keep MC2 Peter alive in Spider-Verse....and it's likely RYV Peter will probably meet his maker in Spidergeddon...while Tom D came to MC2 Peter's rescue by implying his reality wasn't affected and that it was another double...that's mainly an easter egg for long-term readers who understand these things, but I doubt anyone will be going to bat for RYV Peter as Conway is gone and Slott likes to break toys. Quesada seems to be fine with a family man Peter...so long as his story has a finite, and tragic, conclusion
    I have to agree with Mets that I'm not sure if there's any evidence that Quesada was a factor in writing out those characters or not. Also worth noting, there was an extended gap between the end of Spider-Girl and Spider-Verse. If there were no plans for full-on revival, putting them through a major status quo change for the sake of an event does have logic to it. (Also, it remains to be seen what RYV's long-term future is.)
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  12. #477
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelJD View Post
    I also liked her. Just wish her origins was that she was Peter and Gwen child as originally intended (which means no kissing as it makes that one cover feel strange). If not that then a far better idea that was written and executed better and respectfully of past characterizations and legacy of even minor to major characters.
    I would taken that Gwen was mind controlled and raped (Osborn is a monster and I can see him wanting to stake 'a claim' on the woman Peter loves simply as Peter loves her thus Osborn must steal for himself in his madness).
    A 'first clone' of Gwen that Osborn wanted to make to kidnap Peter's Gwen Stacy and when getting close to him and his guard down poison him even if she doesn't want to. To see if this Gwen will do what he says he forces her to follow a order she doesn't want: have sex with him. Unable to stop herself a slave to his desires as she was made to be she does so with tears down her face. The clone gets pregnant and since 'Gwen Stacy' isnt pregnant the plans to kidnap Gwen Stacy and replace with a clone Gwen spy and hidden Manchurian Agent for Osborn is scraped. She is taken to a hidden lab where she gives birth.
    Gwen was experimented on and taken DNA unknown to her that produced in a lab Sarah and her brother in a experiment of how offspring of heroes and villains might produce funded by Osborn and the Jackal.

    Either way it's one of those cases like how the original Clone Saga had a wonderful character of Ben Reilly come to be but the Clone Saga itself not highly looked favorably on due to other aspects (like the one that mostly bothered me was how Peter became a monster/villain during that time by how he acted and responded). Sarah was fine but the story and other elements wreaked havoc that made it a horrible story arc.
    There's a LOT of ways it could have been done.

    One I thought of was for Osborn to create cloned children just because he didn't have any of his own. With it being part coincidence that Gwen ends up as genetic donor #2. They get told this story about where they came from that isn't really true. But that's because Osborn wants them to be weapons.

    The point behind having Gwen as their mother was to make it personal. Any revised version has to make fighting them emotionally traumatic on a personal level for Peter. And that's why Sarah looks so much like Gwen. Pete looks at her and sees Gwen's daughter. He recognized her as such before knowing who she was.... partly because Normie told her what hairstyle/headband to use, but still. Normie wanted Peter to feel the urge to shelter and protect them even though they wanted to kill him.

    Also the published story was actually that Gwen didn't have any emotional attachment to Normie, and only slept with him once. The exact reason.. well we kinda have Normie's word on that. But it comes across as him emotionally manipulating her into doing something she later regretted... a lot. It's a pretty easy retcon to say that it wasn't Normie's charm that did it though.

  13. #478
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Can we not talk about Gwen Stacy's role in Sins Past in the Mary Jane thread, lol?

  14. #479
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Can we not talk about Gwen Stacy's role in Sins Past in the Mary Jane thread, lol?
    Oh... oops, forgot which thread it was.

  15. #480
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    Apparently MJ gets another solo mission in "The Heist" portion of the PS4 game, and has more drama with Peter over the possibility of spoilers:
    Him becoming a father to Felicia Hardy's son...though nothing comes of it as Felicia vanishes after her penthouse is bombed. MJ tells Pete he'd be a great dad at the right time, and Peter responds by saying it ought to be with the right person and they hold hands
    end of spoilers

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