Mary Jane Watson/Parker Appreciation Thread 2018

[Inversed]

The plotting of SMLMJ was just so nice, too. Everyone had flaws, but it all built to something while still being enjoyable every issue..

Yeah, that series was just completely wonderful and honestly pretty underrated now. Each issue is packed with so much story, all the characters were so engaging, it probably handled relationship drama better than any other series I've read in a long time, the drama never felt too forced. McNeever did a great job with all that, and Miyazawa's art is perfection as always. Even with the rushed ending, the conclusion still felt satisfied. Was really disappointed Terry Moore's sequel series didn't continue the story and instead went for a weird reboot/remake.

I dunno, those felt more like surface traits to a character that in practice really didn't feel much like Mary Jane at all, or at least those traits were applied in a very different way then how they are traditionally with Mary Jane.

Like, she wasn't even that much like Ultimate MJ like people were originally comparing her to since Michelle was more prickly and antisocial and not the "everyday teenage girl" Ultimate MJ was.

When I think of Mary Jane I think of someone who's outgoing, sociable, fun to be around, and not someone who would just randomly flip somebody off for seemingly no reason.

The closest Michelle reminds me of is a slightly more introverted version of Spectacular's MJ. They both aren't shy about doing their own thing, while inserting herself into the group of friends whenever she feels. Just the biggest difference being Spectacular, like 616 MJ, is much more vocally extroverted when with others, while Michelle's more laidback to herself.

[Spidercide]

A normal day, where everything is fine. And by 'met Peter', I mean before she first laid eyes on him. Like, did her Aunt Anna try to pair her up with the boy next door?

Probably not no.

On a normal day MJ would've gone to school, goofed off in class to draw a laugh, flirted with some of the lads, maybe gone off/sneaked off to a party or two that night if there was one going and tried not to think about her shitty lot in life at home even if everything wasn't aweful that specific day.

[Spidercide]

Maybe I did overreact a bit lol. Although that brings up another interesting point. Is this really Mary Jane by another name or a separate character?

Okay.

So there are three theories regarding this that I've observed.

a) She is supposed to NOT be MJ but still supposed to remind you enough of her vaguely and be a pseudo role filler for MJ because Marvel/Sony were too cowardly to commit to having a black actress actually play a famous white character. For the record I've stated that based upon what little i've seen and been told of her work Zendaya is actually a great casting choice for canon MJ. Imo she even resembles Romita Senior's rendition of her in certain photos.

b) She is supposed to NOT be MJ but still supposed to remind you enough of her vaguely and be a pseudo role filler for MJ because there is possibly some legal/financial/royalties BS involved with this and someone (Sony to Marvel most likely) would have to pay someone else money if they make her tooooo much like canon MJ hence she winds up being drasitcally different but superficially (as in literally via her initials) is kinda sorta supposed to be MJ. This might also be the reason Ganke from Miles comics got a pretty faithful adaptation into Homecoming except oh yeah he's actually Ned Leeds of course! Hybridizing the characters or changing them juuuuuust enough could be apenny pinching pissing contest thing.

c) They've deliberately set her up to be schrodinger's Mary Jane. So she COULD become like Mary Jane later on or if they don't wanna do that then they don't have to.

My fear and suspicions are that because Homecoming is based upon John Hughes High School movies (moreso than you know...actual Spider-Man comics that redefined teenage fantasy heroes, but screw that lets base the movie upon those 30 year old films that saw no problem with basically date rape) that Zendaya is going to go through a classic 1980s style 'makeover' moment. Remember Homecoming and it's marketing campaign actively invited comparisons between it and stuff like the Breakfast Club and if you look at the movie Michelle is essentially Ally Sheedy's character, Allison Reynolds, from the Breakfast Club. And not for nothing the other main female character in that movie (Claire Standish, played by Molly Ringwald) was a more stereotypically beautiful, popular 'girl next door' red head type, someone more in line with canon MJ in high school.

Like Peter will somehow someway wind up taking 'Michelle' out on a date and when he opens the door to let her in he's shocked because she's gone full Sandy ala Greece and that's how we wind up with a shitty and insulting take on the 'Face it tiger you just hit the jackpot' moment.

Problem is even if that happens and Michelle begins being called MJ and nothing but MJ whilst now acting like canon MJ, it's still gonna be fucked up on multiple levels, not least of all because MJ's character innatly relies upon putting across a carefree glamorous facade that fools even Peter. When you have her be nothing like that and then transform and Peter knows she's changed you totally ruin that, rendering her akin to a character who's like emotionally cosplaying a weird AU of Mary Jane.

[Spidercide]

I'm torn. 1) This is not Mary Jane. It's MJ, at the closest. But 2) my arguments about "not the same character" are kinda hard to maintain when I love Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane MJ, 616 MJ, and Ultimate MJ (and the takeoff for PS4) a lot.

Thing is all of those maintained the same fundamental spirit of the character to varying degrees.

Like people bang on about how great USM was because Peter was young and hip and single but if you really look at MJ's role in that series and how her and Peter's relationship was, it was functionally identical to their relationship in 616 when they were married adults just sans the living together or all the sex. Seriously she did the same stuff whether it was making his suits, worrying about him acting as his confidant etc. It was to the point where Bendis in the dialogue actively invited those comparisons by having Liz claim the pair were married, having MJ introduce herself to Johnny Storm as Mary Jane Parker or telling Miles that after Peter revealed his identity to her it was like they were married.

SMLMJ relied upon the idea of MJ having a facade of a carefree person like in 616 and that idea was so innate to the series it literally mentioned that fact in the recap pages of every issue.

PS4 MJ meanwhile had the same 'bad ass normal, can talk sense into Peter and is his BFF and confidant' aspect of canon MJ too.

Michelle though?

She is literally nothing whatsoever like Mary Jane except for her initials.

[Spidercide]

If you don't fall in love with wanna-be reporter MJ from Ultimate universe, you have no soul!

SMLMJ feels very distinct, to me. She's just so very much a different person with different concerns than any version of 616 MJ I've read. (Likely because I haven't read a lot of the early stuff. Because I'm a filthy casual. )

You gotta read MJ's whole history up until at least 1987. She has the best arc of all the supporting characters sans possibly Harry

[Spidercide]

I'm with you on the love for SMLMJ Mary Jane. I agree that she does feel fairly different to 616 MJ, though its close enough you can recognize them being from the same mold. I love how they really delve into the teenage aspect for her, and how she feels so real and nice.

I do think Michelle acts as a good modern take on what an MJ-like character would be nowadays, she speaks her mind, doesn't care what others think, secretly/silently does care for people. I thought she was a really enjoyable character in Homecoming and I'm very excited to see her relationship with Peter grow in Far From Home.

A modern MJ wouldn't be reserved or dour though. MJ is remember an aspiring starlet and goofball. A modern MJ would be like...all over social media and have shittons of selfies, probably become an instagram model when she was old enough.

[Spidercide]

I don't trust anything, but I hope.



The plotting of SMLMJ was just so nice, too. Everyone had flaws, but it all built to something while still being enjoyable every issue.

Michelle just didn't work that well for me - I liked Liz a lot more (Peter didn't treat her very well). I'm up for more development for Michelle, but as her own character.

The height of SMLMJ was when there was a love triangle between Gwen and Peter and MJ like in the Silver Age but it subverted things and made it actually way more compelling.

Rather than the (yeah we gotta admit...not exactly PC) 'two girls compete over a guy' trope that was old even in the 1960s, the triangle was about how yeah two girls both liked this same guy and he liked them both but it was made more complicated by the fact that the two girls liked one another and one of them didn't want to actually hurt the other, so she broke her own heart out of what she percieved as the morally right thing to do and what followed was THE best example of MJ's party girl facade ever. I still remember that scene where she is removing her make up and slowly breaking down.

How did Peter not treat MCU Liz not very well? He didn't take her for granted or take advantage of her or unjustifiably ignore her. He ditched her on their date for the greater good.

I will say I feel so sorry for Laura Harrier. She had a far bigger and more significant role in the movie but Zendaya was on every poster and she wasn't. And frankly I found her far more charismatic than Zendaya's Michelle.

Frankly I say let all the high school supporting characters be OCs with their own arcs that play out this trilogy and then we can faze them out and reintroduce the classic characters again when Peter hits collage.

[Spidercide]

Spider-Gwen's Em Jay would totally do that though. So there is at least one other "MJ" in the Spider-Verse who is similar to the MCU version somewhat.

Though I think it is still early to judge Zendaya's character. She was hardly there in the first film.

And that's why Spider-Gwen's Em Jay is hot trash, an example of Marvel/certain creators punching down on the character (as they had been doing A LOT before, during and after Spider-Verse *glares at that disgusting backup story from Superior #31*) and yet more example of the Cult of Gwen BS. Make Gwen look awesome by trashing Mary Jane (which Stan Lee himself began doing in his run, remember how Gwen stole MJ's hairdo and MJ got that ugly new one?). It's especially egregious when traditionally that's been done in shipping wars involving Spider-Man but in this universe where he's literally dead, where Gwen and Em Jay have been in one another's social circles for ages, made fame together and are not in competition over anyone, there is still an antagonism because don't you know MJ is a just a total bitch and a slut, Emma Stone told us all so!

Meanwhile 10 years earlier in Mary Jane's AU solo series, we got one of the most endearing versions of Gwen ever and built up a sympathetic friendship between the characters.

[Spidercide]

Yeah, that series was just completely wonderful and honestly pretty underrated now. Each issue is packed with so much story, all the characters were so engaging, it probably handled relationship drama better than any other series I've read in a long time, the drama never felt too forced. McNeever did a great job with all that, and Miyazawa's art is perfection as always. Even with the rushed ending, the conclusion still felt satisfied. Was really disappointed Terry Moore's sequel series didn't continue the story and instead went for a weird reboot/remake.



The closest Michelle reminds me of is a slightly more introverted version of Spectacular's MJ. They both aren't shy about doing their own thing, while inserting herself into the group of friends whenever she feels. Just the biggest difference being Spectacular, like 616 MJ, is much more vocally extroverted when with others, while Michelle's more laidback to herself.

Wasn't Spectaular Mj just silver age MJ but in the modern day and in high school though?

Also regarding SMLMJ I feel like people don't really appreciate what that series achieved.

We gotta remember, the early-mid 2000s was a different landscape for comics. Digital wasn't really a thing. Female leads had a harder time getting a solo-series. None superhero books had an even harder time making headway. And a high school teen romance series was (and to a certain extent still is) a basically toxic phrase within the comic book community akin to like the Titanic being regarded as trash because it too was a romance story. Oh yeah and AUs not labelled 'Ultimate' anything struggled too.

SMLMJ was ALL those things and it lasted for 2 minis and 20+ issues, which might not seem a lot especially by the standards of back then, but honestly given all the handicaps the series had via it's innate premise the fact that it got that much material in the first place is akin to like if Spider-Gwen ran 50 issues now.

[Frontier]

Spider-Gwen's Em Jay would totally do that though. So there is at least one other "MJ" in the Spider-Verse who is similar to the MCU version somewhat.

Though I think it is still early to judge Zendaya's character. She was hardly there in the first film.

Well, considering Em Jay is one of the more shallow interpretations of Mary Jane (I remember a thread a while back that had people discussing the perceived negative portrayal of her in the first volume of Gwen's book), I don't find that a very flattering comparison.

(Granted, Em Jay grew a bit by the end of the second volume, but I'd say she's still pretty far from anyone's ideal interpretation of Mary Jane).

The closest Michelle reminds me of is a slightly more introverted version of Spectacular's MJ. They both aren't shy about doing their own thing, while inserting herself into the group of friends whenever she feels. Just the biggest difference being Spectacular, like 616 MJ, is much more vocally extroverted when with others, while Michelle's more laidback to herself.

"Slightly introverted" and "Spectacular MJ" don't feel like they should go together .

[Red Falcon]

Probably not no.

On a normal day MJ would've gone to school, goofed off in class to draw a laugh, flirted with some of the lads, maybe gone off/sneaked off to a party or two that night if there was one going and tried not to think about her shitty lot in life at home even if everything wasn't aweful that specific day.

So, where does this characterization, along with the other one your mentioned in your previous response to me, come from?

[AngelJD]

I enjoyed SMLMJ. However that Mary Jane version wasn't my favorite. Not close (in fact she falls just below the mid section of favorite MJs). When I think back to that series some positives but also negatives jump mout to me. One issue that made me enraged with the MJ was the one showcasing how she loves to toy with boys even though in the end she hurts them and she doesn't care. I hated that issue.

Also I'm not a big fan of Em Jay. However she's getting better and I'm also going to be honest...she is alot like 616 MJ during her beginning earlier days written. I'm a fan of many characters but many times the bad or lackluster is faded out/glossed over while holding onto just the good. Early days MJ outside of her iconic character intro shot there wasn't alot at the time going for her with me. She loved to party and be center of attention and be catty (plus I know they reckoned that she was secretly helping Peter knowing his secret by wanting to go to the Rhino attack but considering when that was written she didn't 616 early MJ isn't using common sense to the point she didn't that agian and Spider-man/Peter had to scold her for it after saving her).

From that I can see Em Jay and 616 MJ being variants. That during their youth they cared only about themselves and having the attention. 616 MJ has had 50+ years of character developments to move past that phase while Em Jay has now 4 years and yet slowly moving at a decent pace of development. Looking over the issue numbers to when each of the positives stand outs happen for 616 MJ and putting that in perspective in years today (12 issues per year unless a series has a double issue per month like current Spider-man) if we start listing them down we might see a HUGE time gaps. With the level of patience general public and fans have for characters nowadays a big advantage for 616 MJ currently has over others is a Wiki page where a person can absorb tons of stand out info written by a fan (I usually find issues MJ appeared but did nothing or just plays up her party girl attitude isn't covered that much because it's doesn't make a impact or importance to the 616 MJ of now for people to know or we want to let people know usually). 50+ years compiled on one wiki page to be disgusted. Em Jay isn't high on my favorites (mid range currently but was much lower) but if she has the time and the writers continue her own path of developments and possibly stand outs scenes in the positive then she too can rise to a higher level (my top favorite MJs are the one who balance mature and fun and shows cares for others vs the self).

[Confuzzled]

When you have her be nothing like that and then transform and Peter knows she's changed you totally ruin that, rendering her akin to a character who's like emotionally cosplaying a weird AU of Mary Jane.

TBF, the MCU is an AU. It's even got its own number: Earth-199999

A modern MJ would be like...all over social media and have shittons of selfies, probably become an instagram model when she was old enough.

That would be the preferable way of "updating" the character instead of going with Lois Lane Jr.

[Kevinroc]

TBF, the MCU is an AU. It's even got its own number: Earth-199999

TBF, nobody really cares about the comics and the MCU is how people know about these characters.

That would be the preferable way of "updating" the character instead of going with Lois Lane Jr.

Said game sold 3.3 million copies within three days of its release. Since "Mary Jane" does not exist in the MCU, this game's reinterpretation of Mary Jane is going to be the dominant version in the mind of the public.

[Confuzzled]

TBF, nobody really cares about the comics and the MCU is how people know about these characters.

And who's to say Zendaya's MJ doesn't have the potential to grow as appealing or more appealing than 616 MJ? Well, "potential" is the keyword but as I said, I think she deserves another chance as they barely gave her one in the first film.

Said game sold 3.3 million copies within three days of its release. Since "Mary Jane" does not exist in the MCU, this game's reinterpretation of Mary Jane is going to be the dominant version in the mind of the public.

Uh... 3.3 M is not THAT big when we are talking about greater public perception. Even discounting MCU's MJ, I'm pretty sure Kirsten Dunst's version will still be the most dominant "traditional Mary Jane" impression, especially with the upcoming Into the Spider-Verse movie homaging that role in some ways. Video games still don't have the global reach that superhero blockbuster tentpoles have.