Mary Jane Watson/Parker Appreciation Thread 2018

[Tuck]

OMG you guys just started discussing the spoiler openly I can't even...


If that rumor is true, it really shouldn't have been shared out of context like that. You may have put the actual reveal in the spoiler, but really, there should have been a Major MJ in Spider-Verse spoiler kind of warning. Not cool dude, I didn't expect it to be THAT big a reveal. Especially not in the MJ thread. Could have made a separate spoiler thread for it.

Still going in with an open mind for the movie.

Well, clearly you don't understand the crisis here. We're at DEFCON 1. All hope is lost. The Marvel Universe is a sinking ship and people might die.

Your being spoiled is an acceptable situation considering our dire circumstances.

[millernumber1]

spoilers:

Poor comparison. Ultimate Universe ended with Peter and MJ driving off into the sunset, and last year when we revisited them in Spider-Men II they were still together.

end of spoilers

We didn't know that during "Death of Spider-Man" or for years afterwards.

[Confuzzled]

NVM source link doesn't work just for me...

[Inversed]

I love the character too, I love them together, I want to see her/them in more stuff....but its not the only story that can be told with them, and its not the end of the world if they aren't. Especially when they are just a minor side-plot in someone else's movie.

[AngelJD]

I love the character too, I love them together, I want to see her/them in more stuff....but its not the only story that can be told with them, and it's not the end of the world if they aren't. Especially when they are just a minor side-plot in someone else's movie.

I fully agree. As a fan of many characters including MJ fan even if she isn't with Peter or my other favorites are doing different from the norms things they/she can still be well written and have strong stories and developments as a character herself and with others new or old in the cast/world.

Now I also understand some fears any possible negative portrayal of a version might bring about. You don't fear this one negative portrayal. You really fear the 'becoming the norm' for other people.

616 Gwen died and (shocking by today standards if a character stays dead for more than 5 years) has stayed dead for such a long time that became a institutionalization/norm thinking by others. So when other Multiverse Gwen's came about while I love and a HUGE fan of the variety these Multiverse Gwens bring forth many forum commentators would scream "she has to die" with each version despite NOT being 616 Gwen and frankly getting rid of a strong written character version simply as some people think with a mindset of 'must be one way' till 2014 Spider-Gwen disrupted that.

The Venom movie people who ONLY know Venom symbiote by TV shows (usually showing the character not complicated and only a monster) were shocked at the different portrayal of the character they thought was firmly set only one way meanwhile the current comic readers with some exceptions I find commenting they enjoyed it and felt it was more accurate to the comics then the TV shows have done minus a few things.
Comics are a niche market while movies and TV shows have more of a wider spread and how most discover and set their thinking towards in seeing these versions of characters.

[Miles To Go]

Now I also understand some fears any possible negative portrayal of a version might bring about. You don't fear this one negative portrayal. You really fear the 'becoming the norm' for other people.

Precisely. The baseline narrative for the relationship the last decade or so has been "it doesn't work out", tragedy or this sort of thing gets in the way of it. Ironically, it was prophesised by one of the marriage's greatest writers in Tom DeFalco in one of his last Spider-Man stories of the 1990s...the story where archaeologists of the future revealed historians could'nt decide whether Peter and MJ lived happily ever after, if one of them died, or spoilers:

that their relationship ended in divorce.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

I'm worried less about what's happening to one universe's interpretation of Peter and MJ, but that it will supply MJ haters with the fuel they need to criticise the character for countless more years, and use it as a measuring stick by which all future interpretations of MJ are judged...she is the one who gives up, the one who gets away, she is to them no longer the guaranteed rock or guiding influence.

end of spoilers

But perhaps MJ fans will ignore this the way Gwen fans ignore "Sins Past".

[Frontier]

Exactly, every single version of the characters doesn't have to be the same, that's the point of the Multiverse. Also another reason it's not a big problem, is they aren't the main focus anyway, this is Miles film, with the other Spiders as supporting. We don't even know if MJ has any lines.

spoilers:

I feel like we should see the MJ of Miles' Earth play a fairly sizeable role since her version of Peter gets killed off. Granted, it would be consistent with other recent Spider-Man animations to marginalize Mary Jane even when she shouldn't be.

end of spoilers

You do know that this is clearly supposed to be the "bad" timeline, especially when it's being contrasted to how perfect the one in Miles' universe is.

spoilers:

Yeah, I honestly don't have as much of a problem with this since they make it pretty clear that the "real" Spider-Man gets killed off and that the main one in the movie sounds like basically everything that Spider-Man wasn't, so people shouldn't look at him and think that's a testament to who Peter Parker is. He actually makes me think of how Slott's Peter would probably have ended up.

end of spoilers

[Kevinroc]

I suppose this is the part of the thread where someone has to point out that Spider-Man: Into The Spider-Verse was written/produced during the Slott era.

(Someone will point out that Insomniac's PS4 game was also in development during this era. But that game had people from Marvel more directly involved.)

[Frontier]

I suppose this is the part of the thread where someone has to point out that Spider-Man: Into The Spider-Verse was written/produced during the Slott era.

(Someone will point out that Insomniac's PS4 game was also in development during this era. But that game had people from Marvel more directly involved.)

Including Dan Slott himself .

[Kevinroc]

Including Dan Slott himself .

This is true.

[AngelJD]

But perhaps MJ fans will ignore this the way Gwen fans ignore "Sins Past".

While I fear negative presentations I also recall how lucky 616 MJ is compared to many characters and the fortuite that despite many bad storylines that we preserve she has had 50+ years of stories to ensure her name is known vs cast of characters of many other series or even Spider-man series many who come and go but lucky she and the ones that stick around came from the Stan Lee era (with 616 Gwen a exception yet of dead characters she still has more role then other characters that die not called Uncle Ben). That she has had many great not storylines then scenes that we can copy and paste an talk as character establishing or developing. Many characters wish for such a opportunity by writers.

I wrote a bit about this on page 29 of this thread relating to Sins Past and how we MJ fans have to really worry about that. It will be easier to ignore any negatives here as it NOT 616 MJ being presented (plus the negatives presented on 616 Gwen with Sins Past isn't in the same leagues as what people are worried about for this movie version MJ we are writing and presuming about) vs Sins Past where a writer wanting to use his original idea but had to modify/altered 616 Gwen's character and past to his needs and desires despite no evidence or characterization of Gwen in the past issues and we see 616 Gwen in London with no tip off of SINS PAST events or baby bump in london but grieving with her uncle instead in London and coming to terms that how she did Spider-man a wrong in blaming him and missing Peter. That MJ so happened to know this big secret and kept it apparently. That Peter is guilt free of Gwen's death (when it was his web that snapped her neck) and that the Gobin wasn't attacking him but attacked Gwen instead.
This was a storyline that decided to alter past on a idea whim that was modified from Gwen and Peter's kids to suddernly Osborn's and used 616 Gwen so shamefully and Marvel heads didn't care as they felt no consequences to 'important' characters that is now biting them.
If it was a another Earth version Gwen I would be bothered much less as Alternates are 'different' with different pasts and so much more and that Gwen could be power hunger, lusty, and evil and whatever as long as it's well written and fun. We will soon see a Green Goblin Gwen Stacy and I can't wait to see her and how she is presented!

[Inversed]

Precisely. The baseline narrative for the relationship the last decade or so has been "it doesn't work out", tragedy or this sort of thing gets in the way of it. Ironically, it was prophesised by one of the marriage's greatest writers in Tom DeFalco in one of his last Spider-Man stories of the 1990s...the story where archaeologists of the future revealed historians could'nt decide whether Peter and MJ lived happily ever after, if one of them died, or spoilers:

that their relationship ended in divorce.

end of spoilers

To be fair, those are really the 3 only options that situation could end in. And when you're dealing with both Spider-Man and the Multiverse, anything is possible. And when you think about it, outside of Superman & Lois and Reed & Sue, how many superhero relationships have actually "worked out"?

spoilers:

I'm worried less about what's happening to one universe's interpretation of Peter and MJ, but that it will supply MJ haters with the fuel they need to criticise the character for countless more years, and use it as a measuring stick by which all future interpretations of MJ are judged...she is the one who gives up, the one who gets away, she is to them no longer the guaranteed rock or guiding influence.

end of spoilers

We're all comic fans on the internet. We are ALWAYS gonna deal with stubborn people who will hate a character no matter what and use any little thing they can as reasoning for what they deserve hate. spoilers:

If they hate her because *A VERSION* of her in an alternate universe in an animated movie divorced Peter, they probably already hated her and wouldn't have their mind changed anyway.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

Yeah, I honestly don't have as much of a problem with this since they make it pretty clear that the "real" Spider-Man gets killed off and that the main one in the movie sounds like basically everything that Spider-Man wasn't, so people shouldn't look at him and think that's a testament to who Peter Parker is.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

I would make a safe bet his arc is about how one mistake led his life to spiral completely downward and give up, and his training of Miles will lead him to discovering a reason worth fighting for again. And for a movie like this, it's a compelling story that directly connects to Miles too.

end of spoilers

Also I agree with everything AngelJD said and how they feel about everything

[Frontier]

To be fair, those are really the 3 only options that situation could end in. And when you're dealing with both Spider-Man and the Multiverse, anything is possible. And when you think about it, outside of Superman & Lois and Reed & Sue, how many superhero relationships have actually "worked out"?

Barry Allen and Iris West (more or less, sans reboot), Wally West and Linda Park (sans reboot), Arthur Curry and Mera (even with reboot), Luke and Jessica (thanks Bendis), Ralph and Sue Dibny...

I mean, most of these relationships have had the same kind of drama as Peter and MJ, but still relatively "worked out."

We're all comic fans on the internet. We are ALWAYS gonna deal with stubborn people who will hate a character no matter what and use any little thing they can as reasoning for what they deserve hate. spoilers:

If they hate her because *A VERSION* of her in an alternate universe in an animated movie divorced Peter, they probably already hated her and wouldn't have their mind changed anyway.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

I honestly think part of the problem is that Mary Jane doesn't seem to be much of an actual character in this movie so we're not really getting her perspective or her side of things, with either version apparently. Now I get that this is Miles' movie and Mary Jane has no real relevance to Miles in this, but if her relationship with Peter is going to be presented as it is I feel like she should be more involved then she is and give a more fair perspective of things. Especially when, outside the Insomniac game, it's becoming more and more rare for Mary Jane to get any decent focus in Spider-Man media.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

I would make a safe bet his arc is about how one mistake led his life to spiral completely downward and give up, and his training of Miles will lead him to discovering a reason worth fighting for again. And for a movie like this, it's a compelling story that directly connects to Miles too.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

I very much expect the adult Peter's story will involve him rediscovering himself as Spider-man through mentoring Miles, although at the same time the way they seem to be handling him also reinforces my view that Peter and Miles' respective stories just don't seem to mesh as well without significant changes to either character.

end of spoilers

[WebLurker]

Quesada approved of Renew Your Vows. Some of the stronger marriage stories occured under his watch before OMD, indeed, healthy depiction of Peter and MJ was across the board back when he was EIC through USM and other things. It's no coincidence that since he's gotten back into publishing, the Peter/MJ focus has been largely consistent again. I think the dude loves the pair, but the marriage issue is his only hang-up, and that's strictly from a franchise point of view. Even then, he's allowed Peter to remain married in the newspaper strip because that's no threat to anything.

Yeah, he stated he liked them as a family in the Spider-Girl series back in the day. Not sure why he would like that series if he was totally anti-MJ/the relationship.

(In regards to the spoiler about the new movie, can't say I like it, but I'm intending to give it a fair chance when it comes out. It might prove to be the right story-telling decision in context of that narrative.)

[Starrius]

Yeah, he stated he liked them as a family in the Spider-Girl series back in the day. Not sure why he would like that series if he was totally anti-MJ/the relationship.

(In regards to the spoiler about the new movie, can't say I like it, but I'm intending to give it a fair chance when it comes out. It might prove to be the right story-telling decision in context of that narrative.)

Maybe Quesada was okay with them as a family in the Spider-Girl comics because it's not main universe stuff.
As long as it's not main universe, Peter can be married and have children.